It is a worldwide market. Most (all?) dealers in Europe have a network of pickers who obtain fresh material through various means- from veterans and families, house clearances, flea markets, even eBay. Many families in Europe are reticent to share even names of relatives associated with the German military of WWII so often material from such sources will come without any history. It would be, I should think, a simple matter to slowly and carefully introduce fake material into this network. Many deals happen behind the scenes with trades and purchases sending items to every part of the globe. Most collectors are not on the forum. Tracing the origins of unique forgeries is not as easy as it might seem.
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Gentlemen please, back to the panzerpionier wrap.
Food for thoughts :
It seems there is a general agrement about the fact that the fleck or plated b&w piping was not produced and used for pzpio insignias before an unknown precise date in 1943 ?
Logicaly, considering the colar piping and piped colar tabs appliation, can we deduce that there is a hight probability that this wrap was manufactured after january 1943 ?
The faith of the 13. pzpio. bat. is known : http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/.../PzPiBat13.htm
Same for its division :
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...nen/14PD-R.htm
Destroyed in Stalingrad, the division was rebuilt in France from marsh to july 1943, and was sent again in Russia, where it fought untill the end of the war.
So if a Spiess specialy ordered this wrap in a maker's clothes shop established in Posen, it was certainly not before the autumn 1943 at best.
This senior NCO, with this important function in a Kampf Kp. was normaly expericenced, generaly a veteran, not a newbie just directly coming from an Unteroffizierschüle.
This soldier had to have his personnal merits and skill recognized, like as far i know, an Oberfeldwebel in 1943 was never directly promoted to this grade.
And if i understand correctly, the wrap was very lightly worn by his owner (at home,?), it is not completly minty and inussued.
Now what intrigates me is the following detail : there are 2 awards chest loops, presumed period applied of course, but no (at least visible) evidence of any ribbon appliation or loops for ribbon bar.
This lack is not consistent IMHO, as i doubt such a proeminent NCO, at this stage of the conflict, would not have been already distinguished by EKII while having at the same time 2 awards loops; for instance just for sports badge, or a wound badge, or a GAB or a PAB...
I know, this is an hypothesis, and it proves "nothing"...
Just another brick in the wall.
derkaComment
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I think this wrapper has a high probability of being manufactured after January, 1993.Originally posted by derka View PostComment
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I had to formulate this presumption just for the reasoning wich follows.Originally posted by OSS View Post
Insignias display has to be coherent, no hidden tips about originality to keep secret there.Comment
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My apologies.Comment
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Bryon has made many, many calls on items from only one photo, now there's two. I do not understand why he refuses to do it now...except to possibly out another super fake?Originally posted by Glenn McInnes View Post
Now I'm not taking the bait. The same people (minus OSS) have been doing this same thing to me for years. I guess they have never heard of screen shots, just in case anything I say (write) gets altered.
RichardComment
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Derka,Originally posted by derka View Post
What if the only altered part of the wrap was the "der speiss" stripes? How would this affect your hypothesis?
RichardComment
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John,Originally posted by John Pic View Post
Please see my response to Singer and McInnes. That thread is highly predictable, whether the wrap is original or not.
RichardComment
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LW Stug wrap
I'll take the bait. I see nothing from the photos that I can say alarms me.
The eagle and the sewing look good to me. The backing has no knap nor has it ever as it has certainly not been worn off. The condition of the eagle, the thread and the fabric of the wrap look very consistant too me.Comment
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I personally think and this may be a dead point...That all original parts materials and even whole tunics have been used in the modern manufacturing of these "Super fakes" which makes them almost perfect in many ways except for small blunders by the people making them.
When one dealer had his old website he had a large supply of loose original insignia's,buttons,pips,collar cord,cyphers,etc...over time if you kept and eye on it the supply depleted and tunics soon would show up on other dealer sites and even in some collections with the same types of insignias...there are a few "Collectors" on this forum who are expert restoration artists and I know at least one tunic I bought and returned as put together, was sold to the dealer by one of these artists. I think also tunics in various stages of finish were found and "finished" postwar. I say this because of a couple I once bought from Manions early on in the millenium, appeard to be disgards of someone who was trying to finish tailoring them but goofed....I do not know wraps but so many extreme rarities bothers me...and Richard if just the Der Spiess tress was added post war then it is still a monkeyed with tunic...
Look at this tunic...it is in a collection now in Malta the collector would not send me close ups after I showed him this picture...the picture was sent to me by someone named Bruno who worked for HSC colections in France..he offered it to me as original it is a 100% fake all around..I kept only this picture but had many more. I regret loosing much of what I documented on fakes over the years because I could make it easier for people to see if I had kept them.Comment
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How about this wrapper ?Offered very cheap...Comment
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no dog in this fight got my own . but i think this mite be worth a look at as a over view . http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=595900Comment
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Uh yeah exactly what Im talking about...do you think there are more skilled tailors out there with access to items like Mr. Vibes...I do.Comment
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o dont worry john i have learnt most only care about parts tunics and ebay ones . and god help you if you try to show a real oneOriginally posted by John Pic View Post
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Richard,Originally posted by Richard P View Post
It would not affect the resoning, "Spiess" function is just the cherry on the cake here.
And i wonder who would be stupid enought to alter a rare -and presumed untouched- wrap by adding cuff stripes, just to make it more esthetical/sexy or hoping to earn few more bucks this way.
My hypothesis about lack of EKII, in this particular case, worth the one exposed of a specialy ordered /made wrap ; i would not have exposed it if we were talking about a four pocketed tunic of a "Spiess" Oberfelwebel with Hellblau waffenfarbe serving in a Kraftfahr unit...
Remenber, considering avaible pics, that colar piping and colar tabs are suposed to have been applied by the maker of this wrap during its manufacturing process.
Those pzpio seewn insignias are not (IMO) a later modification done by puting off previous factory applied "classical" insignias from the wrap, neither a standart issue "nacked" finished black wrap picked out/choosen from the production line for applying specificaly ordered rarely avaible insignias.
I not saying i'm right, or trying to convince those who believe in this wrap originality.
I just explain some of the reasons making my opinion.
derkaComment
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