Berlin Hoard Skulls - What is the Deal Here?

[vizenz]

The "sandbox-man" is selling his stuff also in the Reichertshofen show. The most of his tables are full with NVA weapon spare parts and ammunition odds. Maybe a third of them are for cloth and metal insignia. Some in glass cases, some in "sand boxes".
The main reason because I never believed in this skulls is that all the other stuff in the boxes are clearly fakes! He sells Luftwaffe cap badges, SS cap eagles and a lot of other things, all in sand boxes - all are fake.
He even sells hundreds of cast copies from Ostmedaillen! (sorry I don't know the right translation).
Most of his cloth insignias are also trash!

What make you people believe that between all the trash are the skulls are real? If you have it beside real zinc insignia you'll see, the material of the skulls isn't the same material!

You believe a newspaper cutting? I'll dig a hole in my garden, throw some "Nazi stuff" in and phone the newspaper - and they will write a wonderfull article about the "hunter for the Nazi treasure". No one will ask if the find is real.

Buy the item, not a story!

The only "Berlin hoard find" that I heard the last ten years was not in a newspaper, and the pieces were all sold in a very short time - without sandboxes! The German dealers fought out who will get the most of the stuff...
Two big winners if I remember right were H.Weitze and D.Niemann. I don't know what the complete find was, but I remember a lot of PAB's. ...and a big number of different skulls - but for Panzer collar tabs and not for the cap.
Maybe is this the "Berlin skull hoard" you guys heard from?

All the best,
Andreas

[Brad Posey]

The only "Berlin hoard find" that I heard the last ten years was not in a newspaper, and the pieces were all sold in a very short time - without sandboxes! The German dealers fought out who will get the most of the stuff...
Two big winners if I remember right were H.Weitze and D.Niemann. I don't know what the complete find was, but I remember a lot of PAB's. ...and a big number of different skulls - but for Panzer collar tabs and not for the cap.
Maybe is this the "Berlin skull hoard" you guys heard from?

Thanks, it sounds like we are getting somewhere with this.

The skulls we are looking at in this thread are Sandbox Man skulls if this is correct.


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[Sergeant 08]

I have seen, there is a theme related skull in the SS forum! The skull looks like one the first skulls, which I got in 2005. Notice the prongs with cuts! There are not so many skulls of this variant out there, as skulls without cuts on the prongs. Why? No idea.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=482604

[checkit]

So, I had an early skull without the serrated edges on the prongs. A potential buyer told me that originals had this serrated feature on the prongs, and all the skulls out there without this are repros.

I take it that is not necessarily true?

[Sergeant 08]

The other bigger "Berlin hoard" skull variant you can always find with cuts on the prongs.

[Sergeant 08]

So, I had an early skull without the serrated edges on the prongs. A potential buyer told me that originals had this serrated feature on the prongs, and all the skulls out there without this are repros.

I take it that is not necessarily true?

I'm not sure, if the prongs (with or without cuts) are really the reference for originality.

All I can say is, that the first skulls which I had in my hands in 2005, had these cuts on the prongs.

[Brad Posey]

So, I had an early skull without the serrated edges on the prongs. A potential buyer told me that originals had this serrated feature on the prongs, and all the skulls out there without this are repros.

I take it that is not necessarily true?

This skull was purchased last month at the Kassel show directly from the Sandbox Man.

It is identical to the other skulls in this thread with the serrated prongs.


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[Robin Lumsden]

The main reason because I never believed in this skulls is that all the other stuff in the boxes are clearly fakes!

Good job the buyer in this thread had a more open mind.......................

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=482737

[Brad Posey]

Robin, with all due respect, I wish you could see the Sandbox Man personally and what he has to offer. As the others indicate.....he sells fakes. I do not mean or intend to question you personally, only the skulls and the conection between them and the Sandbox Man and thier relationship to the "Berlin Hoard".

Maybe, just maybe,...... the skulls are ok, but I persnoally doubt it.

You certainly are the expert, but it does not take an expert to smell a terd and that is the only smell coming from the Sandbox Man's table. That is my point.

If anyone disagrees with that please comment.

Like I said eariler, I will hopefully find this guy again at the next big show and buy one of everything he has just for the sake of this discussion and try and get photos of the newspaper article and his table..... My guess is that a lot of people will be looking for him...he will probably be quiet popular.


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[Luciusdegeer]

Gentlemen,

I also believe that the 'jawless' skulls with serrated prongs are original. It's not because the 'Sandkastenmann' mostly sells crap, that he necessarily has NO originals at all. I think he is making use of the 'Berlin hoard' story, and mixes any fake insignia with some dirt to make them more sellable.
The "Berlin hoard" story amazed lots of collectors some years ago. A newspaper clipping was posted on some fora, perhaps even on WAF. I tried to find this clipping (on WAF, MFF etc.) but couldn't find it anymore... If I remember well, there was some fuss about a historical military building that was torn down, and the fact that a SS-unit was posted there in the 1930's didn't help the preservation of this historical landmark. As we all know, Germans hate their past and just want to get rid of all 'annoying' monuments. Could it have been Jüterbog barracks? I seem to remember something along these lines.
Whatever the case, there was a photograph of labourers excavating the cellar which was filled with sand and dirt, and in this soil the 'hoard' was found. Only large pattern skulls, Hussar-type and pre-1918. So no LW-eagles, BWB's, SS-skulls etc. The fact that all these skulls are of the 'jawless' type, and that the barracks could have been used by a cavalry unit before 1918 could point out that the skulls have nothing to do with SS use. On the other hand, we DO know that the early paramilitary units of the NSDAP relied heavily on Imperial military surplus (windbreakers, boots, insignia etc.). Were the skulls discarded by an early SS unit after the 'RZM'-type skull (with jaw) was introduced? Possible, but not sure...
Anyhow, the "Sandkastenmann' is a dealer who can't be trusted. Like I said, he sells other insignia from boxes with dirt mixed in. Next to his boxes you can have a look at recent photographs of all kinds of 'hoards'. When you look cosely, you can see the 'hoards' are really hoaxes (I like this word...). Why on earth a TR official would keep a box with dirt, mixed with insignia of all kinds... in his attic? To fight fire bombs? Ridiculous... Conclusion: this guy tries to 'milk' a genuine story, but in doing so he makes items that originate from an earlier (and authentic) hoard suspect... This guy sells WH-pipes on realistic looking cardboard backings (so-called Kantinenware), as well as LW-eagles on the same type of backings (supposedly period dealer displays...). The nature of the printing (very convincing) smells of some big fake specialist like Ralf Haas or the friendly guy from Nürnberg. At any case, there's a Southern German or Saarland connection in this. Somebody does a real neat printing job...
BUT... let's get back to the original topic. The "Sandkastenmann" was NOT the first dealer to sell the Hussar skulls. I already noticed them on the La Gleize show in 2004 or 2005, also mixed with dirt (some of the skulls had a reverse completely filled with this material), but NOT in neat cardboard boxes. I passed on them, until a reputable collector showed me the features that convinced him (a.o. the serrated prongs) to buy these lovely and, in fact, very desirable skulls. As they were only 5 euro at that time, I acquired some of them. My friends and fellow collectors see them mostly as pre-1918 Hussar skulls that COULD have been used by the early SS. Nothing more.
I really wonder how many original items get 'spoiled' by the (justified) suspicion against some dealers. IMO the 'Sandkastenmann' bought a number of skulls from the Berlin hoard, and 'expanded' the advantage of a thrustworthy story to other TR items, this time fake items. I agree I can't PROVE the skulls to be legit, but think about these arguments:
1) The 'Hussar' skulls are beautifully made, without any flaws. I think Imperial specialists could tell more about this. After all, the Hussars were an elite unit in the Wilhelmean era...
2) The ridiculously low prices for one piece (at that time!) made it almost impossible to make profit. Producing high-end fakes, then burying them in your garden for years? Come on... The fact that the price for one skull is NOW around 40-50 euro doesn't change this fact. Some faker waiting 10 years to make a serious profit? Given the hature of the fake seller (and in fact, of man) which rotates mostly around GREED, I can't imagine any of them to be that patient. Certainly not sociopaths like Ralf H.
3) Most reputable big collectors (if not all of them) accept these skulls as originals. Experience is the mother of the truth, Leonardo da Vinci once said. Well...

Greetings, merry christmas and God bless each and every one of us!

Lucius de Geer

[Robin Lumsden]

I wish you could see the Sandbox Man personally and what he has to offer.

So do I .................. really, I do.

There was a dealer in the UK many years ago called 'The Old Curiosity Shop'. He also went under the name of 'HQ84' and operated out of Gloucester.

The point is, while he stocked about 99% fakes, he did have a few original items that he had managed to pick up for next to nothing.

These skulls were available in the hundreds when they were found a few years back.

I recall them being sold by various dealers for a few Euros each. They were so common at that time.

Maybe this sandbox guy just bought a batch of them when they were cheap?

Who knows.

All I know is that both of these variants are seen in a few period photos and both appear in the very old book on KR5.

I have a zinc one with brass prongs, which is identical in style to one of the Berlin skulls but was bought a long time before the Berlin skulls appreared.

What is the name of this 'sandbox' dealer anyway?

[Robin Lumsden]

Gentlemen,................

Lucius.

Very well put.

I agree with everything you have posted here.

[Luciusdegeer]

Thanks Robin,

writing this long post actually helped my digestion of a christmas and after-christmas dinner

I just want to add that in fact there appear to be two types of BH-skulls: both are jawless, but one has the 'receeding gums' feature, the other hasn't. Am I correct in this?

The newspaper clipping remains -alas!- hidden in the mists of time...

Greetings,

Lucius

[Brad Posey]

Robin and Lucius,

We can suppose a million things, but right now there is absolutely NO evidence that supports a Berlin Hoard of these specific skulls with the exception of the article in possession of the “Sandkastenmann”.

Those of you that own these skulls and are happy with them, would you mind revealing your source? … I mean would you give the name of the person that sold you these skulls? In my opinion that person will remain anonymous because he does not want to admit that he purchased these from the Sandkastenmann.

I find it very interesting that NONE of the reputable dealers buy anything from this guy. The collectors that own the exact same skulls that he sells, and are convinced they are 100% authentic, have never even heard of the guy. I find that also interesting…Those that have seen him at the shows and seen what he has to sell…seem to be unanimous in concluding that his article (Berlin Hoard) the skulls and everything else he sells is fake.

I do not doubt there is the rare occurrence of something good ending up I a fake tray and some lucky collector or dealer snatches it up.

What I see here is a lot of confusion on this matter…. I understand that an important reputation or a major investment in these skulls would prohibit a good objective analysis of the skulls in question for those concerned.

.I would suggest that those who own what they feel to be 100% legitimate “Berlin Hoard” skulls post very good photos of them here…individually - not the group “space invader” shots. I will reciprocate by posting good images of the pieces bought from the Sandkastenmann last month.

That should be the first step if anyone really cares to find out if this is junk or not.

So, Robin, and others, please post your “Berlin Hoard” skulls with good front and back photos, especially of the pins on the reverse.

If you are interested in finding out the truth about these skulls you will participate in this discussion. If you do not, then it should be assumed you are not objective to start with so why should anyone believe anything you say to start with.

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[Robin Lumsden]

I just want to add that in fact there appear to be two types of BH-skulls: both are jawless, but one has the 'receding gums' feature, the other hasn't. Am I correct in this?

Korrekt!