Berlin Hoard Skulls - What is the Deal Here?

[naxos]

Sorry to all those who feel like I stepped on thier feet.....it is very frustrating trying to sort out fun and games in what I thought was a legitimate and serious question.
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Brad, no need to be sorry here. I welcome your starting of this thread. I too like to find out more about the subject and going by the response to this thread I venture to say that I'm not alone.



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[Ivan Barker]

In response and support to Mr. Posey I personally spoke with the "SandKastenMann" at the Kassel show in regards to where he had acquired the skulls. He stated what everyone has already mentioned, that they were found in Berlin. He had stated that they were found in the attic area of this building hidden away because of not wanting to haul them out so they were hidden to be forgotten about.

I am in full support that these are true pieces and that the "SandKastenMann" is the Berlin hoard.

[Dmv]

That is interesting,, him saying it came from the attic.
Then why the yellow sand on them?!
On most attics there is only...dust.

[schönbeck]

Any pics of the iron cross or wound badges?

[Ivan Barker]

It could have been that they were'nt found until the building hit the ground, hence the dirt and stones. I am currently working my way through the numerous newspapers that are produced in Berlin to see if I can locate the article that talks about the subject at hand. I'm currently starting with the archives from 2004. Does anyone have a recommendation for the year, I'm guessing that the time frame is somewhere between 2004-2005. Any ideas let me know!

[Brad Posey]

What is the name of the sandman/dealer?

I do not know, but next time I see him I will have my camera with me and take some photos of his sandboxes and of the newspaper article. He was at the Kassel show in November.

His name is on the dealer list from the Kassel show, but honestly I cannot tell you exactly where he was. It was in the center of the first hall somewhere.

I guarantee you that someone here knows this guy....but is probably keeping their mouth shut as not to reveal that this guy and the “Berlin Hoard” are the same. That is my opinion, but again why I wanted to discuss the “Sandbox Man” and the “Berlin Hoard” at the same time.

What would really help is if someone could post good photos of what is accepted to be the true “Berlin Hoard” skulls and “Sandbox Man” skulls. And explain the differences.

Remember Mr Sandbox had a lot of other stuff other than skulls. To me it all makes perfect sense….someone buys a load of these for 10 Euro each and offs them to other collectors as “Berlin Hoard” for much more $$. It would be critical in keeping the source of these skulls …and other stuff… separate from the purported “Berlin Hoard” material, which, in my opinion is the “Sandbox Man”.

The “Sandbox Man” has been around just as long as the “Berlin Hoard”, which gives reason to question this matter and come to some resolution. Who is the supplier of these so called true “Berlin Hoard” pieces? That person is anonymous fro my perspective. However….there is the “Sandbox Man” who has been selling his wares for the last 4 or 5 years at Ciney, Kassel and who knows where else…as finds from a large hoard found in Berlin. The only actual reference to the “real” – “Berlin Hoard” comes only from Mr Sandbox. If there is a second “Berlin Hoard” then it needs to be better explained because so far I am only tracking one….Mr Sandbox.

Of course, as you may see in the forum the guys that display a prolific amount of these skulls are 100% convinced that they are real “Berlin Hoard” skulls. The others that have only one or two skulls and question their provenance - that appear to me - to be exactly like the accepted “Berlin Hoard” skulls are considered by them to be fake.

In this thread some say the ones with saw tooth marks on the pins are the good ones from the real “Berlin Hoard”…well the one I have from “Sandbox Man” has these saw tooth marks. Other say that these are the fake ones…

Does anyone here see what I am trying to point out?

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[Brad Posey]

Any pics of the iron cross or wound badges?

I think that the photo posted earlier in this thread of several boxes of “stuff” is the “Sandbox Man”. In that post I think it said if you see this run.

The first time I saw Mr Sandbox was at the Ciney show 4 or 5 years ago. At that time he had a load of stuff and the ULTRA cheap prices, dirt and junk in the boxes convinced me this was a fraud. Let alone seeing things I never heard about before….like hollow silver wound badges with soldering ventilation hole on the backside for only 35 Euro.

Black wound badges for 5 Euro…which he still has many of…..

Maybe its all real….but I have my doubts.

Regardless…I think my main point is that there needs to be a better definition of Sandbox vs. Berlin Hoard…in my opinion they are the same.
Whether they are original or not….I leave that to you guys.

Thank you for your patience concerning my original questions.

Brad

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[David Fettes]

Yes we see (well I do) however you seem to be missing another option. That is the "Sandboxman" is using the cover of the discovery of the Berlin hoard to sell his wares. As for the yellow sand, well it could be from the ground, it could also be dust from a woodworm attack in an old attic. What bothers me is the fact that he keeps the items in a box full of crap. Why do that? If you buy an item off a vet you don't carry him around with you for evermore just to prove its real. Original items stand on their own merit, not a story attached to it (with original dirt to prove the point)

Once again.....buy the item and not the story. Also the Berlin hoard items would IMO have been bought lock stock and barrel by one of the big dealers within weeks if not days of its discovery. The fact that "Sandboxman" still has a lot of items says to me that he is NOT the same man.

The only items that I really trust as being found in an attic or a cellar are the items I find in my own house.




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[tpies]

One thing is for sure. The sandman has been selling these skulls for many years here in Germany. I have seen him at several shows. During the D-Mark days it think he was asking 15DM or approx $7.50 each and now 10 Euro or about $14.00. At that price if you think there is even a possiblity they might be right you can't go wrong by picking one up, if for nothing else but a conversation piece. By now there must be hundreds and hundreds of these examples out there. I know I've talked to the guy on more than one occasion he always has the same story about the building demolition and brings out the article that I beleive mentions the skulls being found. I also wondered about he dirt and he told me that was how they were found.

Tim

[Johnny R]

Yes we see (well I do) however you seem to be missing another option. That is the "Sandboxman" is using the cover of the discovery of the Berlin hoard to sell his wares. As for the yellow sand, well it could be from the ground, it could also be dust from a woodworm attack in an old attic. What bothers me is the fact that he keeps the items in a box full of crap. Why do that? If you buy an item off a vet you don't carry him around with you for evermore just to prove its real. Original items stand on their own merit, not a story attached to it (with original dirt to prove the point)

Once again.....buy the item and not the story. Also the Berlin hoard items would IMO have been bought lock stock and barrel by one of the big dealers within weeks if not days of its discovery. The fact that "Sandboxman" still has a lot of items says to me that he is NOT the same man.

The only items that I really trust as being found in an attic or a cellar are the items I find in my own house.


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I agree and this is basically what I said earlier. There was a real documented hoard of skulls, typically whenever this happens fake items are also attributed to it. All the other crap on the table was not found in the skull hoard, as far as I was told from others and what is described in the earlier thread only the Totenkopfen were part of the one in the paper article with the photo of the items in the ground not in an attic.

[checkit]

seeing things I never heard about before….like hollow silver wound badges with soldering ventilation hole on the backside for only 35 Euro

Your going to see a lot more badges made like that. They electroform the face of the badge, which is absurdly simple to do, and the dimensions and details are just like an original.

But, it leaves the back of the badge very rough. So, they solder a sheet of metal to the back, and file the edges smooth.

It makes for a very sexy and sophisticated looking badge. Convincing, except for the fact that few original badges were ever made that way.

I can post some pics that demonstrate the technique.

[Ivan Barker]

Checkit,

Could you post those pics so we can get a visual on what you have mentioned?

[David Fettes]

One thing is for sure. The sandman has been selling these skulls for many years here in Germany. I have seen him at several shows. During the D-Mark days it think he was asking 15DM

If that is the case then the Sandman pre dates the Berlin hoard find.

[Brad Posey]

I agree and this is basically what I said earlier. There was a real documented hoard of skulls, typically whenever this happens fake items are also attributed to it. All the other crap on the table was not found in the skull hoard, as far as I was told from others and what is described in the earlier thread only the Totenkopfen were part of the one in the paper article with the photo of the items in the ground not in an attic.

But where is the documentation that supports the real “Berlin Hoard”?

The only “documentation” that I know of is the newspaper article that Mr Sandbox displays on his table at the shows…..

Does anyone know of any other documentation of the “Berlin Hoard”?

Can anyone here see what I am trying to point out?

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[Johnny R]

But where is the documentation that supports the real “Berlin Hoard”?

The only “documentation” that I know of is the newspaper article that Mr Sandbox displays on his table at the shows…..

Does anyone know of any other documentation of the “Berlin Hoard”?

Can anyone here see what I am trying to point out?

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Are you suggesting that the article is fake etc?