Generalleutnant Beukemann Tunic

[Jos L C]

It's like in nature, you can't be careful enough, but one day a predator will grab you.., at that moment the herd will panic for a while, but pretty soon they all forget and another one will make the same mistake..
These animals only have one option and that's to live their life and wait, they can't fight the predators, because they're to weak, they could leave the area far away from the evil, but for some reason they don't..

For some reason we're pretty much the same, we let f*ck ourselfs and still call it good addresses, hiding the names while we know who they're, protect them, afraid of if we nail them, they might be angry and maybe they won't sell to us anymore, we let them slice our throath over and over, only saying they're crooks and how bad they're and in the meantime they're still part of the society and noone will ever harm them.

We've been judge of someone who was nailed by someone who was nailed, but the nailer stays outof focus while he is known, how come ?
Is it a code, is this how it works ?
I don't understand the protection by people who are ripped hard time by someone who will make another victim by tomorrow.
We're not talking about $ 50.- here.

Jos.

[Paul McKee]

Sometimes over-confidence in one's own knowledge can be a dangerous thing. I can easily imagine the German dealer selling the Beukemann tunic with it looking 100% and "neglecting" to inform the buyer it was restored. If not directly asked at the show, that fact may not have been freely offered. Kind of like buying a used car and the seller conveniently not mentioning it burned oil. Perhaps even the German dealer himself was duped into purchasing a restored tunic from a third party. Many scenarios are possible here.

Should everything be disclosed before a sale is made? Absolutely.

Paul

[JG 51]

It's like in nature, you can't be careful enough, but one day a predator will grab you.., at that moment the herd will panic for a while, but pretty soon they all forget and another one will make the same mistake..
These animals only have one option and that's to live their life and wait, they can't fight the predators, because they're to weak, they could leave the area far away from the evil, but for some reason they don't..

For some reason we're pretty much the same, we let f*ck ourselfs and still call it good addresses, hiding the names while we know who they're, protect them, afraid of if we nail them, they might be angry and maybe they won't sell to us anymore, we let them slice our throath over and over, only saying they're crooks and how bad they're and in the meantime they're still part of the society and noone will ever harm them.

We've been judge of someone who was nailed by someone who was nailed, but the nailer stays outof focus while he is known, how come ?
Is it a code, is this how it works ?
I don't understand the protection by people who are ripped hard time by someone who will make another victim by tomorrow.
We're not talking about $ 50.- here.

Jos.

Thats a great metafor, it´s exacly what it´s all about

[Rich G]

It's like in nature, you can't be careful enough, but one day a predator will grab you.., at that moment the herd will panic for a while, but pretty soon they all forget and another one will make the same mistake..
These animals only have one option and that's to live their life and wait, they can't fight the predators, because they're to weak, they could leave the area far away from the evil, but for some reason they don't..

For some reason we're pretty much the same, we let f*ck ourselfs and still call it good addresses, hiding the names while we know who they're, protect them, afraid of if we nail them, they might be angry and maybe they won't sell to us anymore, we let them slice our throath over and over, only saying they're crooks and how bad they're and in the meantime they're still part of the society and noone will ever harm them.

We've been judge of someone who was nailed by someone who was nailed, but the nailer stays outof focus while he is known, how come ?
Is it a code, is this how it works ?
I don't understand the protection by people who are ripped hard time by someone who will make another victim by tomorrow.
We're not talking about $ 50.- here.

Jos.

100% correct Jos.

[Renaud]

Perhaps even the German dealer himself was duped into purchasing a restored tunic from a third party

We don't still know who he is ?

[John Pic]

The answer is right infront of your face....who stood to make the most money from selling the restored piece..not a collector...and if you research it its not a first. Who always has Generals tunics and SS officer tunics available and almost every 6 months a new Ss officer tunic surfaces from them.
Jos you are right but whats the price of exposure of a crook to a collector..long threads that turn into p...ing matches between those who defend and those who condemn..which ultimately lead to a dead end locked thread.

[Rob E.]

It was stationary sewn under the left collar and had a metal loop (or eye) on the other end of the ribbon, which would be fastened onto the hook when the collar was buttoned up. Kind of like a chin strap on a flight helmet. If I understood what you were asking that is.

I agree.

Fantastic tunic!

[BenVK]

Jos you are right but whats the price of exposure of a crook to a collector..long threads that turn into p...ing matches between those who defend and those who condemn..which ultimately lead to a dead end locked thread.

...and the banning from the forum of the few who speak out?

Actualy, in this case, the seller of this particular item has acted very well IMO.
How many dealers have we seen post here to the effect that none of us know jack sh!t and then refuse to take the item back? ..plenty!

[Chris D.]

Giving a full refund was the right thing to do. The question is, who did Chris007 sell the tunic to and who did ROTR buy it from, if it is the same person, well bing bong, there you go, if the person is different, who knows. Or was it in fact ROTR that did the "restoring" and are only now offering a refund to save face in the light of the blatant damning evidence? We are on multiple pages of this now with still no idea who is the bridge between chris007 and ROTR despite asking repeatedly.

[W.Unland]

Hello,

As a police collector I rarely venture outside of that forum, but couldn't help but read this interesting thread. I know I have little standing here but feel the need to offer this small comment.

Anyone who believes that there are 1000's of "untouched" TR tunics out there is delusional.

I'm sorry, but being an old guy who was making the gun show circuit as a kid back in the 60's I remember that EVERY tunic was a put together. There were piles of stripped tunics for sale for $25 each or 5 for $100.

Yes a few tunics were taken intact, but many were stripped after the war as scrap and ended up in the collector's market.

Now I look at what is for sale at shows and on dealer's sites and there are only "untouched" fully badged tunics of all ranks. What happened to all those 1000's of stripped tunics from the 60's, geeze I wonder. I think I saw one "real" general's uniform and maybe two SS tunics between 1968 and 1975 and those were in the hands on the "big boys" from So. Ca. Now there are an unlimited number of both available if you have the money.

Yeah right. Don't be naive. I always assume every tunic has been re-badged. Back in the day every dealer openly re-badged tunics and nobody really cared. Now collectors seem to think every relic is, or should be untouched. The collecting psyche was different back then. The "preservation" of history was NOT the purpose. Stuff was relatively cheap, and people played to make their "stuff" as pretty and rare as possible.

Take everything with a grain of salt, as the idiom goes. And please, the surprise and indignation expressed at the revelation that dealers actually hump stuff up, are you kidding? Of course they do. They always have. They always will. That's how they make money, including some of the "gods" deified by some forum members.

Regards,
Bill Unland

[pep]

Hello,

As a police collector I rarely venture outside of that forum, but couldn't help but read this interesting thread. I know I have little standing here but feel the need to offer this small comment.

Anyone who believes that there are 1000's of "untouched" TR tunics out there is delusional.

I'm sorry, but being an old guy who was making the gun show circuit as a kid back in the 60's I remember that EVERY tunic was a put together. There were piles of stripped tunics for sale for $25 each or 5 for $100.

Yes a few tunics were taken intact, but many were stripped after the war as scrap and ended up in the collector's market.

Now I look at what is for sale at shows and on dealer's sites and there are only "untouched" fully badged tunics of all ranks. What happened to all those 1000's of stripped tunics from the 60's, geeze I wonder. I think I saw one "real" general's uniform and maybe two SS tunics between 1968 and 1975 and those were in the hands on the "big boys" from So. Ca. Now there are an unlimited number of both available if you have the money.

Yeah right. Don't be naive. I always assume every tunic has been re-badged. Back in the day every dealer openly re-badged tunics and nobody really cared. Now collectors seem to think every relic is, or should be untouched. The collecting psyche was different back then. The "preservation" of history was NOT the purpose. Stuff was relatively cheap, and people played to make their "stuff" as pretty and rare as possible.

Take everything with a grain of salt, as the idiom goes. And please, the surprise and indignation expressed at the revelation that dealers actually hump stuff up, are you kidding? Of course they do. They always have. They always will. That's how they make money, including some of the "gods" deified by some forum members.

Regards,
Bill Unland

YES BILL, YOU'RE RIGHT!!
but, collectors, we NEED to think we're buying a piece of untouched history. its only our mind.
we don't accept almost all pieces are messed with.

[Johnny R]

I will never sanction or justify ripping anyone off by suggesting people who are buying things they believe to be real are as reponsible as the people creating and selling fakes as real items. So if someone is mugged it is their fault for being where the mugger was at that time?

IMO these people are bottom ditch low end criminals. They do not have balls, only tiny spheres of WH period thread between thier legs.

[JG 51]

YES BILL, YOU'RE RIGHT!!
but, collectors, we NEED to think we're buying a piece of untouched history. its only our mind.
we don't accept almost all pieces are messed with.

Still many collectors accept messed tunics without even knowing it. To be honest, how many original attached eagles is it out there ?? Defenitley not as many as it claims.

[David Fettes]

Unless a tunic comes straight out of the vets wardrobe and they have a photo show them wearing it (including all awards, eagle etc etc) I believe we can never be sure. As for the person who doctored (restored) the tunic we need to find out who this was.

[DonC]

Still many collectors accept messed tunics without even knowing it. To be honest, how many original attached eagles is it out there ?? Defenitley not as many as it claims.

I would guess that only 10-15% of eagles are original to their tunics or caps. Almost any tunic or cap that you would get out of Germany has probably got a replaced eagle - after all, that was the law, and who in 1945 or '46 would have even though twice. That doesn't bother me. Selling restored items as 100% untouched does, however. I hope that whoever humped up the Beukemann tunic is caught out.

Don