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Richard is correct this tunic was part of the tropical cap stash and has been in storage for decades before turning up. I looked it over a few years ago and was ready to buy it but stupidly got spooked by comments made when this first appeared on this forum. In my 45 years of collecting there is always something turning up that is not textbook or I never saw one of before." It can't be good because I never saw one like it " ranks with "my gut tells me" as the top of the truly assinine expressions in collecting. "Museum Quality" is third.
Thousands of these were made with only maybe a few remaining today. Hardly enough control specimens to cover every manufacturor's variation. If any of the tunics in the period photos on this thread were to show up on this forum, they would be soundly thrashed no matter how good they were.
In my humble opinion this wrap is right as rain as is the label. BTW there are some very fine army tunics around with paper labels with factory sewn insignias. The current owner of this tunic has a real prize!Comment
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The major argument for the wrap is Tony had it. I don't know Tony but from what I'm reading he found all this stuff in the 60s, locked it all up and never bought or acquired anything from the 1960's until he sold it all off in the 90s. Is this correct?
I certainly believe there are original items out there that I've never seen.
Question is what separates this one from all the white( SS, heer, Lw), green HBT, Tropical HBT Denim wraps that everyone swears up and down are original -from depots etc., all of which magically appeared on the market after 96/97. Is it the zig zag stitching behind the collar, unusual depot stamp, stamped on the inner pocket? No the only real difference is the story.
WR Jim
Originally posted by nutmeg View PostComment
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Tony had great stuff mostly bought in the 50s and 60s from what I am told by friends of his. Most of the tropical mint overseas caps and many of the mint late tropical tunics you see around today are from his stash. Not to say there were any bad items in it but everything I saw was perfect. I am sure there are others on the forum who know more details about where he aquired it.Comment
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I'll give you the first, because not everything that existed wound up in books, however, I dont see anything wrong with the other two. Museum quality? Would rather fit the bill of most nice items, be they ultra rare (and real) or just really nice specimins of common items, we have seen. I will continue to follow my "gut" though thank you very much, I dont think its asinine at all, people should follow their gut, its saved , me a lot of money, but to each his own. Iwill say ONE thing about this "tropical" stash, I dont know about all the other items that were in there, but I"ll bet you dollars to donuts, as in the case of the hordes of DAK caps, the other items were left over stock, unusued, of items which are readily identifiable as originals today, and not "one of a kind" knock-offs. that is what my gut tells me. I dont know that they are real or not but my gut tells me they could be, but Im not betting my life on it. I hope they are, but I am wary of the story as just that "a story". I dont know the players involved with the find, I proably never met them, and wouldnt know them if I did. Show me a picture of Tony with the horde circa 1960, or someone who was there, then, I'll believe the story, until then, its just a story, like so many others. Im sure I'll catch a "flame" or twoOriginally posted by nutmeg View PostRichard is correct this tunic was part of the tropical cap stash and has been in storage for decades before turning up. I looked it over a few years ago and was ready to buy it but stupidly got spooked by comments made when this first appeared on this forum. In my 45 years of collecting there is always something turning up that is not textbook or I never saw one of before." It can't be good because I never saw one like it " ranks with "my gut tells me" as the top of the truly assinine expressions in collecting. "Museum Quality" is third.
Thousands of these were made with only maybe a few remaining today. Hardly enough control specimens to cover every manufacturor's variation. If any of the tunics in the period photos on this thread were to show up on this forum, they would be soundly thrashed no matter how good they were.
In my humble opinion this wrap is right as rain as is the label. BTW there are some very fine army tunics around with paper labels
with factory sewn insignias. The current owner of this tunic has a real prize!
re my post, however, it still is my "gut" feeling re the wrappers. I know Jerome Blake is another "old timer" that is only supposed to have 100 percent good legit stuff, all old, all real, however I can say that a few items he sold were found to be bad(no malintent on his part), from credible individuals involved, hence, some people who have been at this a long time do pick up some bad items, whether these wrappers fit the bill or not, I dont know, I just know that saying "so and so had it" is no guarantee of authenticity. Anyway I dont own the wrapper anymore, and have no real dog in the race, other than I would like to believe it is real, but sometimes wanting something to be real can negate the very things one checks in doing so. I've held this wrap in hand stuidied it at lenght, it is in most ways constructed exactly as the germans would do it, proper reinforcement areas under the collar, proper hardware (although the brownish cuff paper buttons always bothered me) however, I still dont see the necessity to use the heavy "oatmeal" hbt for the interior, and not standard hbt, unless it was just scrap used, and the markings I never fell in love with. Still, this piece is not a one looker in my opinion either way, its a mystery to me, and shall remain such.
Last edited by Scott A. Hess; 03-11-2009, 12:49 AM.Comment
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hello,
Richard, few observations :
as said, i believe an item must stand by his own merits. of course, since when, where, by who was it found or owned, in wich conditions, are certainly interesting infos, but IMHO can't be considered as real evidences.
i don't see clearly in what to show another different hbt item bring something to the debate about the hbt "hybrid" wrap of this thread.
or maybe you could show markings wich would be the same for both, for instance ?
or is it to show an uncommon example of evolution of an item during the war, ie a "nebel" jacket, another "hybrid" too with a simplified construction , like for your wrap ?
derkaComment
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My dog relies her gut for decision making, for me it is a thoughtful process involving my brain.
The Tony stash was quite well known in the LA area. While there were loads of duplicates there were also individual items he bought from rag dealers and other places. Most the older collectors from that area knew him.Comment
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<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5COwner%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsoh tml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <wOriginally posted by nutmeg View Post
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<o></o>
I went through and looked over all the pics I had of paper tags. One things for certain, the tag on this wrap is the most poorly printed one out there.<o></o>
<o></o>
Tags are hard to authenticate because there was no real standard on what went on them. Some were just plain paper with the sizes.<o></o><o></o>
On the tags I looked at the following wording was sometimes used. Not every tag used all the terms.<o></o>
a. Manufacturer-self explanatory<o></o>
b. I. fd. Nr.-not sure what this was for . It was on a Para smock followed by a number. I think it's another means of displaying the order number. <o></o>
c. Auftrag number (order number): Every example I looked at was followed by an order number and sometimes by a description of the item.<o></o>
d. Stuck Nr. Number of the piece.<o></o>
e. Innungsstempel: Inner stamping.<o></o>
f. Anfertiger: producer, manufacturer.<o></o>
<o></o>
The stamp on the wrap uses some terminology not common to the paper tags I've seen:<o></o>
a. Artikel: For the item<o></o>
b. Grosse: For the size<o></o>
Of course there is nothing listed for the order number. The addition of the RBN is also a bit unusual, never seen that on a tag.<o></o><o></o>
Does this mean the tags bad? Of course not but it raises some more questions. Now maybe someone could start a thread "Show your paper tags on tunics and pants? in the SS, FJ, civil organizations and Wehrmacht forum. It's certainly an interesting topic and I'd surely like to see the results.
"The Tony stash was quite well known in the LA area. While there were loads of duplicates there were also individual items he bought from rag dealers and other places."
The original story was the item came from a rag dealer in the 1960s. I'm looking for some evidence this is true. Was Tony still acquiring items from other places after the 1960's? We know he sold his stuff sometime after the all the fake HBT wraps came out. So could it be possible he didn't get the wrap in the 60s but in the 90s?
WR jimComment
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Hbt
This was turned up by Tony Gordon but it hit the market years before he cut loose with all the recent all the Tropical stuff ? Correct? Where did he get all the Tropical stuff? I have rumors does anybody know for sure?
BrianComment
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Derka,
I only posted the nebel jacket as this was brought to my friend along with the HBT wrap and a host of very rare SS insignia, which I have photos of, but there is no point in showing them. My friend did not know what either HBT piece was, but did know original HBT when he saw it in hand from his 25 years of collecting.
I will keep searching for answers and post if I get any.
RichardComment
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I had heard the tropical stuff was bought by him in Austria in the 1950s. I could be wrong but that is how I recall the story. A lot of what he got was from rag pickers.
When I looked at the tag the paper was weak enough where it could not have been easily sewn to the wrap without coming apart. It also did not glow under a UV , not the last word but a test you wouldn't want to fail for paper.
There are not enough surviving paper tags to make judgements about, most likely there are none still extant from various large suppliers. I'll post one of my paper tags shortly.Comment
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First to Richard= I posted a public apology on the other thread about that awful wrap that was posted. I offer the same here. Your wrap is head and shoulders better made but still exhibits some of the same features which raise alarm bells in my head. I would be extremely happy to have you prove me wrong in my assessment of the wrap.
Nutmeg the truth is there are not enough surviving examples of many items to make a final judgment on them. However there are generally enough items around to make a broad observation.
a. Original HBT wraps have always been tough to find, but are out there. All the ones I 've seen or handled before 96/97 did not have zig zag stitching behind the collar and were stamped differently. Now were only talking about a dozen wraps. But were talking both models of HBT, both models of mouse grey and the second model denim versions. They were from the Munich, Hannover and Frankfurt depots. Of course there are lots of long time panzer collectors who haven't weighed in on this discussion. Of course some of the big Panzer guys like B.N. Singer have already commented on the zig zag stitching:
Originally Posted by Panzer
generally I do not deal in "absolutes" either.... I have NEVER seen an original with zig-zag behind the collar...Sorry to say but (wait for it!) "I could entertain doubts"
Cheers, Wade K.
I concur.
B. N. Singer
b. Items stamped at the Posen depot are relatively scarce in comparison to items from other depots. However I collected enough depot stamps from Posen to make a general observation, which I posted.
C. Paper tags are out there, but if you take them by specific manufacturer are indeed rare. But by looking at enough of them, even by different maunufacturers, some trend might become clear.
100 years from now no one will know or care who Tony or any of us are. So the item has to stand on its on merit.
WR Jim
Originally posted by nutmeg View PostLast edited by djpool; 03-11-2009, 06:45 PM.Comment
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Heres one of the two tunics I still have with paper tag. By coincidence its a HBT wrap. Its been posted before and there was no questions about its originality. Who ever owned it before me sewed a new eagle on it. The way its padded I think the factory sewn eagle is still underneath it. You can barely see the stamps unless you hold it in the sun. jimOriginally posted by nutmeg View Post
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f9...l/DSCF0926.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f90/djpool/hbt2.jpgComment
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