Wehrmacht HBT Stug wrap

[Sayle F]

HBT feldjacke

Does this similar uniform have the same type of boards? And does it show signs of ever having collar tabs? If it does someone probably took off the tabs as they are quite rare on dark green wool.

[Scott A. Hess]

Another forum member, Scott Hess, looked for and found photos of an HBT wrap he bought from Bill Shea in approximately 2004. This wrap was near identical to the subject wrap that started this thread except the collar tabs were removed, and the markings different. Scott decided not to keep the wrap as he could not find any confirmation as to originality. It was returned to Bill and it was quickly resold for more money. It now resides in another collection. Thanks to Scott I am now able to share those photos.


ORIGINAL WRAPS MARKINGS

Let me just add for the history of this thread and to be fair, when this jacket went back to Bill, it did NOT go back with any letter or info that I indicated it was a repro, I simply offered it back to the source as a SALE and not a "return" (there is a distinction), and Bill accepted. I still can say, I dont know 100 percent either way on these wrappers, I just dont know, and when I dont know something, I err nowdays on not owning it, unless its a 100 dollar item. thus, I dont want there to be any misunderstanding or implication that Bill is reselling items which a collector (me) told him or indicated was bad, I simply say now, as I believe then, Im not sure, and prefer not to collect in that grey area, true, it can be collecting by consensus, which Im not a big fan of, however, when all is said and done, I'm the one paying for a piece, and must be happy with it, if Im not, then eventually, I get too antsy, and prefer not to own it. I hope that makes sense. I dont want anyone to get the false impression or think there is some "hidden" agenda here, as Ive done business with Bill for a good 15 years, and its always been more than a positive experience.
`

[Richard P]

Does this similar uniform have the same type of boards? And does it show signs of ever having collar tabs? If it does someone probably took off the tabs as they are quite rare on dark green wool.

Sayle F,

Yes, it has the exact same boards, but I was not able to secure permission from another member who had photos of the boards and collar, which showed evidence of removed tabs.

Scott,

Thanks again for digging up those photos.

Richard

[Luca Ongaro]

Here again my opinion about this HBT wrap.
I am quite sure this is an original example pre May 1945.

If the problem is the zig-zag under the collar, I own and I have seen other two originals in this style.

I am waiting to see statments by who has had it on hands for inspection at the SOS.

Personally after have seen other detailed pictures I have no any problem with this HBT wrap.

Luca

[derka]

hello,

a fellow collector on a french forum (thanks a lot Michael ) kindly gave me this information about the number 0/0456/0004 :
firm : Westfälisches Textilwerk Adolf Ahlers
town : Elverdissen (Westf.)
Products : Berufs- u. Sportbekleidung, Herrenwäsche
so at least, it seems this code was for a real clothing manufacturer during ww2.
maybe deeper research can be done in that way.
althought i'm still not realy keen about those wrappers, aside zigzag stiching debate,
i try to keep my mind open, and i must admit this is a positive point concerning the question of their originality,
even if it is not a definitive one IMHO.

Richard, to be sure to understand correctly,
there is bias material in the colar construction of both wrappers you provided pics of ?

derka

[billmunny]

fascinating thread...

This wrap is very reminiscent of unissued SS reed-green wraps sold by Alan Beadle in the UK some years ago...it was the same unissued unwashed green HBT, zig-zag stitching under the collar, pressed paper buttons, and a factory-sewn EM sleeve eagle. He had several of them, all unissued, and I was just very wary of the wraps and the source...

[derka]

This wrap is very reminiscent of unissued SS reed-green wraps sold by Alan Beadle in the UK some years ago...it was the same unissued unwashed green HBT, zig-zag stitching under the collar, pressed paper buttons, and a factory-sewn EM sleeve eagle. He had several of them, all unissued, and I was just very wary of the wraps and the source...

were they with the same design, ie Heer construction,
or SS design ?

[billmunny]

SS-cut

they were SS-cut wraps...he had about a dozen and they were sold for about $1200 a piece..I'm sure he still has photos on his website...he never updates his site!

[derka]

they were SS-cut wraps...he had about a dozen and they were sold for about $1200 a piece..I'm sure he still has photos on his website...he never updates his site!

yes, still visible, p2 and 22 of german uniforms section on the website, described this way :
"Y4903: WAFFEN-SS PANZER HERRINGBONE TWILL WRAP-OVER TUNIC
Rush green cotton herringbone twill material; loops and buttons for slip-on shoulder straps; late type "ersatz" compressed card buttons; zigzag machine sewn RZM type eagle on left sleeve; stamped inside with "II" size and "R.B. …" maker’s marks; wrap-over front of same design as the normal black and field grey type Panzer jackets. Excellent, almost mint condition. It would appear that this style of hbt Panzer wrap-over tunic was exclusively used by Waffen-SS Panzer units, rather than the Army style hbt Panzer tunic with the large pocket on the left side. See Mollo "Uniforms of the SS", Vol. 6, page 58 for a photo of a Waffen-SS prisoner in Normandy wearing one of these Panzer hbt rush green tunics and the matching trousers "
"2048: WAFFEN-SS REED GREEN DOUBLE-BREASTED PANZER TUNIC
Herringbone twill material, late type, single row pressed card buttons right side, zigzag machine sewn RZM type arm eagle left sleeve, shoulder strap loops/buttons, maker code/size stamps. Mint, ex-stores as would have arrived front line Panzer Division summer 1944. Widely worn Normandy Campaign, by itself or over black/field grey Panzer tunic cold weather. "

thanks for this information.
derka

[derka]

re,

same website, this one is interesting too p11 :
"Y4699: LUFTWAFFE 'HERMANN GÖRING" PANZER DIVISION GREY WRAPOVER TUNIC AND TROUSERS
Very scarce type in pale blue/grey hbt material. Jacket with large pocket on left front and double line of zinc buttons on right; white piped slip-on shoulder straps in same material as uniform, subdued grey tress for Unteroffizier; zig-zag machine sewn breast eagle; Iron Cross ribbon in button hole, loops for two combat awards. Trousers are special Panzer type with integral belt and ankle ties; white cotton liner, issue stamp very faint. Good condition "

derka

[Luca Ongaro]

0/0456/0004 :
firm : Westfälisches Textilwerk Adolf Ahlers
town : Elverdissen (Westf.)
Products : Berufs- u. Sportbekleidung, Herrenwäsche
so at least, it seems this code was for a real clothing manufacturer during ww2.

Thanks for this information Derka
Luca

[Scott A. Hess]

Sorry, could you post a link to the website? thanks!

[Napalm]

http://www.ab-militaria.com/index.shtml

[Richard P]

O.K., back from the show.

Derka, many thanks for posting what you have learned of the manufacturer, sounds very obscure to me. It would take someone with German as their native I think to research it further. I would also say that both mine and the one Bill Shea sold have bias material in the collar, although I have only examined one. They both came from the same manufacturer

I tried to show the tunic many times, but some were very busy and I went back repeatedly without luck. When they weren't busy I was recovering from the most walking I had done in a long time.

I did however show it to 16 different rather advanced collectors, dealers, etc. The results were 15 to 1 in favor. The one nay vote was from a dealer who already offered his opinion in this thread and it did not change.

Several of those who barely had it out of the bag only had to touch it and weigh it in hand to render an opinion and further examination only bolstered their first impression. George Petersen was one of those who barely had it out of the bag and said unquestionably German WWII manufacture. After he looked it over he said he could not tell what model it was and had never seen one, but still no question about its originality.

Another who did not want his name mentioned on the forum was an advanced panzer collector who has spent most of his adult life in textile manufacture including denim and various cloth products. He also stated it was made of 2 types of original HBT cloth, period sewn, period manufacturers tag and went over many reasons why it was so. The remainder of the "YEAH" saying examiners said it was original WWII HBT, killer piece, love to have it, don't know what model it is, etc.

Bill Munny, There was one of those SS HBT wraps there that have been mentioned and they have about as much in common with any real HBT wrap as a Levi jacket. I held one side by side and my HBT wrap and mine was noticeably lighter in weight than the fake SS wraps. Color, material, weight, nothing near original material. Thanks again to all who took the time to look, for or against.

1. I would still love an intelligent explanation as to why a faker would make an unknown variation wrap?

2. Why only two have ever surfaced, mine first in the 60's.

3. Why the two examples have such different markings?

4. Why they would make a limited run of two examples out of 2 types of original HBT, and not at least use the same piece numbers or whatever the four 3-digit number stamps are in the 4 sections, and why not depot mark and date both, leaving them completely off one?

5. Why did the faker use such an obscure RBNR manufacturers code and leave the "NR" off one and the whole "RBNR" off the other?

6. How could they have committed the cardinal collector sin of zig zag sewing the back of an HBT collar. Why not let the bias material free float in the collar and lump up, just leave it out. Could it possibly be because they intended to mount tabs at the factory?

Richard

[Gerard/Relic Hunter]

I guess I was the lone nay sayer. Richard, I really appreciate you showing it to me. My opinion was it was a really, really good attempt, but in person, to me, the white lining hbt was way too stiff and thick. Also, to me the tag looked fake in person. Just my opinion, my "gut" didn't like it. If I saw it at a show, I would leave it. Maybe I'm crazy.

Gerard