Wehrmacht HBT Stug wrap

[derka]

hello,

Richard, your questions in points 3, 4 and 5 are particulary right.
few more observations :
- IF (i insist at this stage) those wraps are fakes, it means the faker took a real rbnr for a clothing manufacturer, hence he had acces to a list of codes and picked up one not very well known; to deceive search ?
- polsen (Poznan) is far away from Elverdissen :
http://www.maplandia.com/germany/nor...d/elverdissen/
i would think more logical to pass by a nearer bekleidungsamt.
- the bekleidungsamt stamp "P" without size indications on the second wrap is very odd to me; as i think it was a condiition for delivery. is there at least a tag on this wrap ? and is there any evidence of a removed breast eagle, like on your wrap, as it looks like factory applied ?
i would add that if we admit it is a factory applied eagle, this model did not appear before august/september 1944. so a late late war production.
if there is a triangular shadow evidence too on the 2nd wrap, it would then be interesting to check if Polsen was still an operational german center at this date, or if the town was or not already in russian's hands at this period.

derka

[djpool]

Gerard,

My votes with you. I'll stick to the textbook examples. There are just too many HBT wraps (in all colors/HBT/Denim)with zig zag stitching on the collar and stamped incorrectly, being declared as original examples these days. Funny that until the the 96/97 timeframe I never saw one manufactured like that. If we we were talking one example I might buy it, but hundreds? Kinda smells to me. wr Jim

I guess I was the lone nay sayer. Richard, I really appreciate you showing it to me. My opinion was it was a really, really good attempt, but in person, to me, the white lining hbt was way too stiff and thick. Also, to me the tag looked fake in person. Just my opinion, my "gut" didn't like it. If I saw it at a show, I would leave it. Maybe I'm crazy.

Gerard

[Richard P]

Gerard,

You are an honest, conscientious fellow, all one can ask is an honest assessment. You took the time to look and that is very appreciated...at the SOS, time is money. As I have said I am not an HBT collector but found this one wrap very attractive. This, like many other pieces will probably never have a unanimous consensus on originality, unless some form of written or photographic proof develops, but then, that too can never convince everyone. My comment back would be the oatmeal colored HBT may feel stiff, but keep in mind this is like a new pair of Levi's...unwashed. It is also significantly lighter in weight that any repro wrapper that I compared it to. Thanks again for taking the time to look and offer an opinion.

My 40 plus years experience with German and occupied and many other countries sewing methods is usually what I base my decisions on. I have bowed to my peers on the main question as to whether it is unissued, unwashed HBT of German WWII manufacture and the consensus on that is overwhelmingly favorable.

Jim, I am rather surprised at your comments. Have you followed this entire thread? There are only 2 examples of this wrap known. It has a known history going back to the 60's. You are the owner of a unusual wrap or two plus. I suppose this would definitely fall out of the textbook category, but I thought a couple of your wraps did too. Perhaps you will get a chance to see it in person one day. Thanks too for commenting as I also respect your opinions.

Richard

[djpool]

Double post

[djpool]

Hi Richard,

I have been trying to follow this thread, of course its a bit confusing. I have a hard time trying to track of which wrap we're talking about. To be honest I am skeptical of any HBT or denim wrap with zig zag stitching on the rear. However I won't say its impossible. I have a standard second pattern 4 pocket HBT tunic with no zig zag stitching behind the collar. So the reverse is certainly possible. But its not just the zig zag stitching either. The stamps are a real sore point. Seems to be a few out there with the same RBN number. I think Derka mentioned the firm was a known manufacturer near Gutersloh. Yes they were : they made underwear and lingerie before the war. Certainly they could have gone into making uniforms. So for me personally I would need more evidence they made HBT tunics and how the RBN was tracked to that firm.

That it was found in the 1960s would be strong evidence of originality. I don't think these were faked back then. However do we have receipts, pictures etc that conclusively date when it was found?

Here is a comparison of the RBN number. Not sure if any of the wraps they came from are accepted as original. However two of them appear to have been stamped by the same stamp.

So I still have too many doubts. Jim

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f90/djpool/coparesizerbn.jpg

[djpool]

Some one posted this earlier and it was trashed as a repro HBT wrap. I do believe its a repro but out of Denim. Again wrong construction and the weave is wrong for denim. Its similar in color to one I own ,which is identical in construction to accepted original Mouse Grey wraps. Jim

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f90/djpool/hbt006.jpg

[djpool]

"George Petersen was one of those who barely had it out of the bag and said unquestionably German WWII manufacture. After he looked it over he said he could not tell what model it was and had never seen one, but still no question about its originality".

Richard,

I have known George for a long time and have the greatest respect for him. However I don't always agree with him. I "think" George also liked this one. The rare Afrika Korp wrap dated 1941. I don't like this one either.

Jim

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f9...g?t=1236648523

[Richard P]

Jim,

Thanks very much for weighing in. It does get very muddled in this thread with all the other wraps introduced. Unfortunately that is beyond my control and have tried to make sense of things now and again. I have read all your threads on your wraps many times in researching this wrap, I feel your pain...ha ha. That's why I was glad you posted for or against.

I do understand the HBT zig zag skepticism, I just tend to see it as a method of holding material in place that could bunch up and cause lumps if left loose. Probably why most hard wearing HBT items did not have it in the collars, as they did not come with tabs and were to be washed when necessary.

Tony Gorden found this wrap in a rag mill. He also found all the bundled DAK caps, the bundled Allg. SS numbered cuff titles, SS general's bullion tabs and the list goes on. A friend was there when this stuff was pulled from storage and the history of the items relayed at that time. The wrap was photographed approx. ten years ago when pulled from storage and was posted twice by forum members when it went to Grenadier Militaria for sale two several years apart.

Jim, the RBNR photos you posted are from this wrap and the one like it. I have never seen that number in anything else. I was told by Mr Hritz that you have known George for a long time, I am glad you have a mind of your own, that's what this is all about. That DAK wrap is a new one on me. Thanks for all your input and hope maybe I helped clear up a thing or two.

Richard

[djpool]

Hi Richard,

I've been working a book project the last year+ so I've tried to avoid getting into long discussions on the forum. I think I have a few weeks of down time until the publisher gets back with any changes.

Anyway the story of how it was found can really only be tracked back with certainty until grenadier militaria got it. Of course that was after all the fakes came out. Prior to 1996 its a story you believe or not.

But the story aside the wrap has to stand on its own merits. So I go to my comfort zone: being textbook examples without zig zag stitching and stamped differently to form an opinion. These were the pre 1996/97 standards before the fakes came out.

The Posen stamp also bothers me. Here is a comparison of the P stamp on the wrap thats similar to yours (I actually think they were made by the same folks). Compare it to 5 Posen stamps from unquestionable original pieces. The P tends to be the same size as the numbers and they tended to use open "4"s. Is this conclusive evidence the wraps being discussed-"No". But it is another factor we have to disregard in order to believe the subject wraps are original.

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f9...depotstamp.jpg

The Posen depot was probably issuing clothing until Jan 45. The soviets surrounded Posen in Feb 45.

Jim

Jim,

Thanks very much for weighing in. It does get very muddled in this thread with all the other wraps introduced. Unfortunately that is beyond my control and have tried to make sense of things now and again. I have read all your threads on your wraps many times in researching this wrap, I feel your pain...ha ha. That's why I was glad you posted for or against.

I do understand the HBT zig zag skepticism, I just tend to see it as a method of holding material in place that could bunch up and cause lumps if left loose. Probably why most hard wearing HBT items did not have it in the collars, as they did not come with tabs and were to be washed when necessary.

Tony Gorden found this wrap in a rag mill. He also found all the bundled DAK caps, the bundled Allg. SS numbered cuff titles, SS general's bullion tabs and the list goes on. A friend was there when this stuff was pulled from storage and the history of the items relayed at that time. The wrap was photographed approx. ten years ago when pulled from storage and was posted twice by forum members when it went to Grenadier Militaria for sale two several years apart.

Jim, the RBNR photos you posted are from this wrap and the one like it. I have never seen that number in anything else. I was told by Mr Hritz that you have known George for a long time, I am glad you have a mind of your own, that's what this is all about. That DAK wrap is a new one on me. Thanks for all your input and hope maybe I helped clear up a thing or two.

Richard

[Scott A. Hess]

The thread continues to interest me, and Im still on the fence on this subect, I would like to believe them, I'd like to believe the wraps were fouhd in the 60's, caveat, my judgement today is to authenticate a piece aside from the history/story
and thats what I stick to, I'vehead too many stories, mind you, some stories are true, and some are just that, stories. IN the end, I have to discount them, as I've been taken in by "stories" before, so while interesting, i can only go by the piece. That being said, I bought a single decal SS m40 in 1974 from a kid from school, he said he got it from his uncle, knowing him, he stole it from his uncle, but the piece turned out to be right as rain, the real deal and so it goes. Now, if I relate that , its till just a story, but the piece is a one looker, so the story does not authenticate the piece, the piece itself stands on its own to feet. My gut feeling is any piece which relies on its story needs to have the story cut out, if the piece on its own does stand on its own two feet, and thats pretty much how I still feel. If the piece stands on its own, then the story in the end dosnt need to believed, but adds interesting history to it, of course, if honest. However, as i've mentioned, the minute the story is required to authenticate the piece, then, I back away. All in all, I dont know what to make of the wrappers, if I was 100 percent convinced, or 90 percent, I would have kept it, the markings too I always was not impressed with, just my thoughts.

[djpool]

Hi Scott,

Stories used to be a good way to authenticate items. When some one told you they got it from a vet you could usually believe it, unless the seller was a known crook. But within the last ten years the fakers have made up all kinds of stories and even go so far as make up capture papers, put in theater stamps etc. I still believe some stories but it depends on who relates it to me. But in the final analysis the item needs to sell itself.

As far as this wrap is concerned the folks that believe they are original haven't made an effective argument so far. At least as far as I'm concerned. But if they could provide some of the following information I might change my mind:

An undisputed original HBT/Denim wrap made before 1996/97 with zig zag stitching behind the collar and stamped in the same manner.

Any type of tunic with the same RBN so we could compare the two stamps.

An identical stamp from the Posen depot on any type of undisputed original piece of clothing.

Verification that the RBN number is actually the Westfälisches Textilwerk Adolf Ahlers and that they made HBT clothing during the war. The Company is still in business so they might have some historical information to support the arguement.

I understand that there are lots of original items that aren't accepted within the collector community. One goal of the forum is to get to the truth (maybe the most important goal). I've started a few discussions over items that collectors were skeptical about like the dark green Brandenburg CT, Officers M43 with wool dark green Trap and green denim wrap etc. These discussions can be painful and take several years to pull all the information together. But if you believe the wrap is original you need to go the extra miile and make your case. You might not convince everyone but at least you've done a service to the collecting community by laying out all the facts.

Assuming the manufacturer is actually the Westfälisches Textilwerk Adolf Ahlers heres a map of the known depots in relation to the company (burgundy circle). Generally the depots contracted out work with in the local area. But there are known exceptions. Many of the clothing items processed by the Posen depot were made in Litzmannstadt.

WR Jim

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f9...LOCATIONSA.jpg

The thread continues to interest me, and Im still on the fence on this subect, I would like to believe them, I'd like to believe the wraps were fouhd in the 60's, caveat, my judgement today is to authenticate a piece aside from the history/story
and thats what I stick to, I'vehead too many stories, mind you, some stories are true, and some are just that, stories. IN the end, I have to discount them, as I've been taken in by "stories" before, so while interesting, i can only go by the piece. That being said, I bought a single decal SS m40 in 1974 from a kid from school, he said he got it from his uncle, knowing him, he stole it from his uncle, but the piece turned out to be right as rain, the real deal and so it goes. Now, if I relate that , its till just a story, but the piece is a one looker, so the story does not authenticate the piece, the piece itself stands on its own to feet. My gut feeling is any piece which relies on its story needs to have the story cut out, if the piece on its own does stand on its own two feet, and thats pretty much how I still feel. If the piece stands on its own, then the story in the end dosnt need to believed, but adds interesting history to it, of course, if honest. However, as i've mentioned, the minute the story is required to authenticate the piece, then, I back away. All in all, I dont know what to make of the wrappers, if I was 100 percent convinced, or 90 percent, I would have kept it, the markings too I always was not impressed with, just my thoughts.

[Richard P]

Hi Jim and Scott,

Thanks again for all the input. I tried the link to the locations but could not get it to work. I will probably have to get a German speaking individual to do some investigating on the maker for me.

The only reason I even bring the history up is that one of my friends was there when all this stuff was brought in to be sold from this guy's storage.

To me one of the biggest questions has been answered repeatedly...is this original WWII HBT? The overwhelming number of long time collectors say, without a doubt...YES!

The question that would naturally follow would be who has used original WWII HBT making fakes and why would they make an unknown model of wrap?

Richard

[djpool]

Hi Richard,

If the story can be validated beyond any doubt then it might be relevant. you state your friend was there when it was brought in to be sold. Was that in the 1960s or around the time it went to grenadier to be sold. whats the relation to it being found in the rag mill?

Now to your question of :

The question that would naturally follow would be who has used original WWII HBT making fakes and why would they make an unknown model of wrap?

They appeared to have used original HBT on some fakes. But are we certain the HBT is original. I refer you to this discussion on HBT splinter smocks. When originally posted most of use believed it was real. After Werner P. brought out some discrepancies in the camo pattern and it went down hill from there. To the naked eye the HBT material is dead on! The owner sent the smock to me for examination and it was only under magnification that I could see the difference between it and an original piece.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...er+pattern+HBT

Had the camo pattern been correct (and there are plenty of repros out there that do an excellent job of replicating the pattern) this smock would easily have been blessed as real. So why did this faker go to so much trouble replicating the material etc and screw up the pattern. We'll never know. Maybe they were just lazy or they did it intentionally, so they could which items were theirs. I know this sounds strange but I've personally known a few folks who made good repros and then added a feature so they could tell if the work was theirs.

The one thing is certain though, in the 96/97 timeframe HBT wraps hit the market with incorrect stitching and markings. Since then there have been a flood of these wraps in all types of materials/colors with the same features. Prior to that time you were lucky to handle a standard HBT wrap in your collecting lifetime.

WR Jim

Hi Jim and Scott,

Thanks again for all the input. I tried the link to the locations but could not get it to work. I will probably have to get a German speaking individual to do some investigating on the maker for me.

The only reason I even bring the history up is that one of my friends was there when all this stuff was brought in to be sold from this guy's storage.

To me one of the biggest questions has been answered repeatedly...is this original WWII HBT? The overwhelming number of long time collectors say, without a doubt...YES!

The question that would naturally follow would be who has used original WWII HBT making fakes and why would they make an unknown model of wrap?

Richard

[Scott A. Hess]

There is another forum member here who has done some fairly extensive work on Rb number verificiation, I will have to hunt it down or the website. I almost feel the same about the green hbt items in general, be it four pocket, pants, wrappers, if I recall, some of the earlier repros were coming out around the sos in 96, I know, I got stung, and 7 years later, they are still fooling people. They have only gotten better since then. Bob Sevier told me a good 20 years ago to hang on to hbt stuff, as the repro stuff out there was coming on the market, and real honest to god hbt material is scarce, at least in his opinion, my two cents worth, the last 15 years, 10 in general, everyone and their Aunt Tilly (sorry just like the phrase) has hbt stuff for sale, and damn near most of it is mint, some is good some just has to be bad in my mind. I understand the problem with this wrapper too well, I wish it is real, I hope it is, I just don't know, one way or the other, I either either had a repro (tht is the wrapper is) or I let a good piece slip between my fingers. All I can say for sure is when I parted with it, I just wasn't entirely comfortable with it, however, I do realize it came from a good source, someone who knows a hell of a lot more than I do, that is for sure. I just as I mentioned, tend to discount history/story unless as I said, I confirm in my own mind that the piece is right w/out the story, I'd rather not hear the story truth be told, however, I am also humble enough to realize that the amount I dont know would fill volumes, more than I can count, as opposed to what I do know, and many good things I may dismiss may be perfectly fine, and I pass now on things which I dont know about, or dont believe in 100 percent. If that means I lose some treasures, well, then so be it, but the stuff is too expensive to not factor cost into the item, not when a 3k or 4k piece if bad is worth about 5 dollar or whatever a reenactor will give you for it, money is juts too valuable these days, at least staying afloat in this economy is, thats why I just dont go out on the limb, and stick to textbook (99 percent) and what I know. Im no expert, and never proclaim myself to be one, none of us here were around when this stuff was being made, many however have been collecting long enough and done sufficient research to know better, and do, I believe I fall somewhere in the middle, and have a lot to learn, that is why I keep coming back to the forums, as they have saved me a lot of money, and opened my eyes to things I would not have considered. Ihope the wrappers turn out to be right George Peterson is certainly an "old timer" as the saying goes in this business, that being said, I have yet to meet a person who has not made a mistake, myself included often enough.

[Richard P]

Jim,

No..it was brought to my friend's house in the early 90's along with hordes of other items Tony had packed away in storage. Tony frequented rag mills in the 60's and these 2 HBT items were two pieces from that era (the other piece I'm about to post). At least he didn't use the "got them from a vet story."

This HBT is a good deal lighter in physical weight than repro HBT. I have held various fake HBT wraps in one hand and mine in the other and the weight difference is very noticeable. All the collectors who handled this wrap and say original HBT are well versed in original HBT from anywhere from 25 to 40 plus years of experience. I am not and claim no experience in HBT whatsoever. I can see the tremendous difference side by side with one fake HBT wrap as I borrowed one for about 6 months and still have it here.

Here is another HBT piece that was with my wrap and offered with it back in the 90's.

Richard