SS High Leader Prototype Dagger - Anyone Ever Encountered One Before? Oldtimers?

[wilhelm Saris]

Old and interesting thread. I have not much knowledge about daggers at all, especially about the SS, but I wonder what happened with the dagger, which SS-Obergruppenführer Fritz Weitzel had made by the concern of Peter Daniel Krebs (owned by Werner Krebs) from Solingen (the concern that also manufactured the SS-Degen).

Does somebody know how this dagger did look like? This dagger Weitzel mentions in a letter from May 24, 1940, which was send to Himmler to get approval for his new design dagger. Weitzel says in his letter that for quite a long time his thoughts were about a new SS dagger design. He had contacted Gruppenführer Wolff about this, who suggested to have the dagger made. The 1. Musterexemplar was send to Himmler, was completely made by hand. Weitzel asked Himmler to give his critics.
In June the Chief of Staff answered Weitzel that Himmler had a look at the dagger, but did not want to make a decision due to the going on of the war. The design was asked to be kept and show again when the war was over.

A year later new designs (drawings) were made for a dagger for the Waffen-SS, having the portepee attached. They were handed over to Himmler by Pohl. Pohl must have shown another prototype to Himmler in about September 1941.

Does anyone of you have answers to this? Just curious!!

[BrianK]

I'd like to know the answers too - I'm also curious. Any SS prototype dagger is dismissed out of hand as a fantasy piece, but other SS items, of which there are no period records are widely accepted, like the ""SS Wedding Casket". Go figure.

[JoeW]

I'd like to know the answers too - I'm also curious. Any SS prototype dagger is dismissed out of hand as a fantasy piece, but other SS items, of which there are no period records are widely accepted, like the ""SS Wedding Casket". Go figure.

The documentation Wim mentions was brought to light in Angolia's first dagger book wherein he discusses the SS prototype daggers and shows photos of several including the alleged Krebs prototype that was originally shown a decade earlier in Atwood's book. But of course, we only have Atwood's word that the illustration he pictures is in fact a prototype manufactured by Krebs, as there is no marking of Krebs shown on the dagger.

We have documentation that there were at least two SS prototypes, but no period illustrations. So any claim of association requires a leap of faith. And in the case of the damascus blade "SS prototypes", there is so much garbage baggage associated with them, from their first "discovery" by Atwood, through later appearances in noted "reference" books including ever-changing stories of numbers made; and it is difficult to comprehend why anyone would believe that the SS high command would order the production of a prototype SS dagger for general issue to futre thousands of SS men that would have a damascus (hand made) blade. It is kind of a contradictory idea to me: a handmade damascus bladed dagger mass produced for general issue in the 1000s.

As to the problems you see with things like the "SS wedding casket", well there is pictorial evidence of newly married SS couples receiving a copy of MK. So why not a storage container. They received silver cups too according to pictorial evidence, but we have no documentation for that.

[BrianK]

I'm not talking about the Atwood daggers - those are like a vampire with a stake through the heart - they keep coming back and are killed every time. I'm talking about the John Pepara dagger pictured by him at the beginning of the thread. This appears to be the dagger featured as the frontspiece in Tom Johnson's, "German War Booty". It also is the same piece (I think) as the one being offered by Craig Gottlieb as John Pepara's SS prototype dagger. Is this the dagger that is accepted as authentic by the collecting community?

[JoeW]

I'm not talking about the Atwood daggers - those are like a vampire with a stake through the heart - they keep coming back and are killed every time. I'm talking about the John Pepara dagger pictured by him at the beginning of the thread. This appears to be the dagger featured as the frontspiece in Tom Johnson's, "German War Booty". It also is the same piece (I think) as the one being offered by Craig Gottlieb as John Pepara's SS prototype dagger. Is this the dagger that is accepted as authentic by the collecting community?

Brian, I thought you were talking multiple daggers with your comment "Any SS prototype dagger is dismissed out of hand as a fantasy piece, but other SS items, of which there are no period records are widely accepted, like the 'SS Wedding Casket'."

I don't have TJ's book on war booty. But Craig did indicate he assisted in brokering the sale of the John Pepera Alcoso made SS dagger. I don't know of anyone dismissing it out of hand as a fantasy. I think it is accepted as an original pre-1945 dagger. The question is whether it is a true "prototype" or an example of artistic design by the manufacturer. The pre-1945 provenance accompanied the dagger, but the evidence of it being a "prototype" is lacking. I would say it is more of a theory.

[Lampwick]

Here's one that I've been offered. Absolutely Genuine!! The man says so.

[ronno58]

prototype ss dagger

Hi, sadly items like these daggers would seem to be of no intrinsic value at all,
No one believes in them which would make them virtually worthless ,sweeping statement I know but you can see where I am coming from .??

[Lampwick]

Aye. I knew it was crap as everything he has offered me has been the same sort of stuff. I only put it here as another picture of the dagger at the head of the thread.

[steady]

Update

Hello

So I acutally found this dagger in "Les armes blanches du 3 reich"
Heres a picture:



Translation of the text: Prototype dagger ss executed in 1939 by the studio of Paul muller camp dachau. Damascus blade. Old silver fillings. (Coll. Atwood)

I dont know what Coll stands for but the name Atwood bodes ill most of the time.

[Lampwick]

'Coll.' = Collection. Must be genuine if Mr Atwood had it.

[Viriathus]

Here's one that I've been offered. Absolutely Genuine!! The man says so.

I guess I know the seller's name... Vasilij or Vitalij Klatt? In case he's a notourious fakes seller! I was offered by him another fake prototype dagger...

[james1940]

atwood

read about this guy when he was stationed in berlin after ww2 and his trips to various daggers makers that were left.in1958 eckhorn[sic] because they were still making post ww2 junk

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

Brian, I thought you were talking multiple daggers with your comment "Any SS prototype dagger is dismissed out of hand as a fantasy piece, but other SS items, of which there are no period records are widely accepted, like the 'SS Wedding Casket'."

Actually the "SS Wedding Casket" is a bad example, 60% of the WAFers think that all the similar boxes proposed since the early 90's (all coming from England, i'm smelling a rat...) are 100% bogus.
If original SS caskets of course existed, all the same types that are proposed since early 90's are clearly fakes copied or extrapolated from a single original.

See You

Vince

[BrianK]

I have my doubts about the "Wedding Casket" also.

[jujuy]

This book is fullfilled of fakes. All the proto of high end daggers are well known fakes (see Stephens repro recog books)
one of the worst reference book you could use.

Hello

So I acutally found this dagger in "Les armes blanches du 3 reich"
Heres a picture:



Translation of the text: Prototype dagger ss executed in 1939 by the studio of Paul muller camp dachau. Damascus blade. Old silver fillings. (Coll. Atwood)

I dont know what Coll stands for but the name Atwood bodes ill most of the time.