SS High Leader Prototype Dagger - Anyone Ever Encountered One Before? Oldtimers?

[Christian J]

I quoted Atwood earlier from 1965 who said at least 4 copies (by Mueller) were sent to SS headquarters in Berlin for examination and “proofing”.

Tom Wittmann reprinted a 1969 letter to Atwood from Mueller, where Mueller says that he sold the supposed “1939 Dachau SS prototype” to Atwood (with no mention of how he still had possession of this supposed prototype). And that in 1963 he sold four additional Damascus bladed “SS Prototype daggers” dagger to Atwood made from leftover parts. The letter also mentioning Mueller selling (among a number of other things) the “notorious” (TW’s words not mine) Damascus bladed “SS” letter openers. Wittmann, if I remember it correctly, also stated that there were more than four known “Mueller SS Prototypes” currently in collections.

An accident? A coincidence? Or is it an example of multiple individuals taking advantage of others? FP

Might this be one of that sort? The pictured example have french provenance and is up in the newest Thies auction.

[JoeW]

Here's a period picture of the prototype 1939 SS Dagger. Not a leader dagger but a replacement for the Model 1933 according to the picture info that dates from 1939.

Caption:

'SS-Dolch von 1939
SS-Dolch von 1939; der von Reichsführer SS Heinrich Himmler ausgewählte Entwurf sollte das Modell von 1933 ersetzen, kam aber infolge des Krieges nicht mehr zur Ausführung'

Roughly translates to :
SS dagger of 1939; The prototype chosen by leader SS Heinrich Himmler to replace the model of 1933, however, as a result of the war not introduced.

I much prefer the M1933 myself. Good decision not to introduce it Mr. Himmler

It is a small world in collecting. I bring this thread back up with an illustration of what I regard as the necessity to research everything that you find on the net or in print. It ain't safe out there.

Take for example the photo Steve T provided above, noting in his post that this was a period picture of the prototype 1939 SS dagger. Now most of us recognize this photo. Yet here it is found on the Ullstein Bild site. Strange that an Atwood dagger would be found there. Not so strange when you consider how old the Atwood book is. The photo was taken out of the Atwood book and placed in their film/photo archive.

As an interesting point, while doing some research on the SS swearing in ceremony at the FHH, I needed to find an original German copy of the Hoehne bookl Order of the Death's Head. While checking some of the text for translation problems (it happens), I looked through the photo section. There was the Atwood dagger as pictured above, the picture cited taken from the Ullstein Bildarchiv with their description and included in the superb book by Hoehne.

Now Steve T thought it was an original photo because it came from a German site? I don't know. But the Ullstein photo of the Atwood dagger has been memorialized in the often quoted SS bible by Hoehne. You must be certain of your sources.

Joe W

This hobby is a continuing education.

[james m]

Yep:
It's a small world and quite a closed one I might add. Notice that there were NEVER any opinions or explanations offered about the "Prototype SS dagger" Brian Meaderer had for sale for $150k a few years ago. See picture in post no. 40 of this thread.
Jim

[Barry Brown]

I was offered one of the Mueller SS-prototypes in September 1989 by one of the leading US dealerships at that time. The attached scans were faxed to me in the UK with a fax letter giving its provenance and full details of how it was discovered in a house clearance in Germany in 1954 ("prior to Atwood's first contact with Mueller") and that it "was not one of the four copies Mueller made for Atwood". I was subsequently shown the dagger at the 1989 Max Show. It was impressive, in hand, and superior to any of the Atwood copies I had previously seen, but after considerable reflection I decided not to proceed to a transaction because of the financial risk, being mindful all the controversy that had surrounded these daggers for many years, and still continues to this day. I do not know who finally purchased this example of Mueller's SS-prototype.

[JoeW]

Thank you for your additional comments Barry. Very interesting that the provenance sought to predate the Atwood-Mueller liaison.

[Barry Brown]

Joe,

What was the year of the German edition of Heinz Hoehne's "The Order of the Death's Head" in which you found an illustration of the Mueller prototype? I have the first English edition published 1969 (from the German first of 1967) and the dagger is not illustrated. Just wondering when it got to be pictured in this serious and prestigious work on the SS.

Barry

[Frogprince]

I was offered one of the Mueller SS-prototypes in September 1989 by one of the leading US dealerships at that time. The attached scans were faxed to me in the UK with a fax letter giving its provenance and full details of how it was discovered in a house clearance in Germany in 1954 ("prior to Atwood's first contact with Mueller") and that it "was not one of the four copies Mueller made for Atwood"...............

The two daggers shown in TW's book are of noticeably varying quality. And that is with only two examples. With other specimans of supposedly rare daggers showing different levels of workmanship as the (postwar) production run continued, with the quality usually deteriorating towards the end. So the following expresses my feelings towards the supposed "provenance" much better than I could have.

............ " Once thought to be a fantasy piece, the one on my site is obviously real. I got it 4th hand from a picker in Idaho who got it from the vet's stepson's ex-wife's daughter from her third marriage, and I will give you a certificate of authenticity that says so."

FP

[JoeW]

Barry, the German edition I viewed was the 1967 one published by Mohn. The photos were grouped together unlike the English edition by Barry that reduced the number and broke them into sections. The "Atwood" photo was attributed to Ullstein in the sources at the end of the book. Obviously Ullstein had a copy of the Atwood book and added the photo to their picture archive with Atwood's explanation, thus including it for posterity in an otherwise valuable historical photo source. It was then digitalized and now available on line.

I refer to the German edition sometimes when something does not seem correct. For instance when Barry, the English translator, worked on the description of the graduation ceremony in the Kanzlei with Hitler, he wrote that the Junker Schule graduates received their "daggers". I checked the German edition and Hoehne used the word Ehrendegen. Barry figured a phonetically similar word would work and used dagger. So in reading the English edition about the swearing in of SS at the FHH, he wrote that later they received their daggers. I wanted to make sure he chose the correct translation.

[JoeW]

Along with the "rare prototype SS dagger" from the Atwood book (p53), Ullstein Bild also recorded for posterity Atwood's photo comparing the two SS daggers Models 1933 and 1936.

The Ullstein notation is almost word for word the description of Atwood, including the statement that the chained 1936 was for officers only.

[Frogprince]

Along with the "rare prototype SS dagger" from the Atwood book (p53), Ullstein Bild also recorded for posterity Atwood's photo comparing the two SS daggers Models 1933 and 1936......................

The Ullstein notation is almost word for word the description of Atwood, including the statement that the chained 1936 was for officers only.

No argument with the above, which is something that I think many (myself included) never really took notice of until it was pointed out. Being another one of Atwood's "staged" photos (meaning a phony supposedly studio type shot) there is something else that I think can be seen. The M1936 type dagger on the right seems to be either dimensionally different from the dagger on the left, or shot from a slightly different angle. And both appear to show signs of wear/age. FP

[RussellM]

The eagle in the dagger on the left is placed quite high up in the grip...

Regards

Russ

[Notaguru]

Barry:
The dagger you show in your last post is the exact one I photographed for my Calendar. For some reason I can't upload photos so if anyone has a copy of my 1991 "Remnants of War" calendar, feel free to post it.

[JoeW]

Fred, you are correct. The M1936 seems a half inch or so shorter in the scabbard. And that M1933 eagle is high towards the pommel compared to the M1936.

It seems the photo lacks any depth, almost as if the dagger photos were photos themselves and put together. I was curious about this and looked for the photo credits. Looking in the acknowledgments I discovered the name Tom B. Rachels. Has anyone ever heard of his name before. If you haven't read the credits of Atwood's book, Rachels was identified as a co-author, responsible for design, layout, sketches, photography and retouching of fine details. In his preface, Rachels accompanied Atwood for a few days and reported that at the urging of many collectors, Atwood began the book.

Search for Rachels on this forum yielded http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...hlight=rachels .

[Ron Weinand]

I'm with Joe and John on this one. Never saw one I like of these and the only true SS prototype is the one with the SS runes in the grip (although one rune was replace years ago).

[cogwheel]

Notaguru: This is the picture from your 1991 calendar.
BTW: Those caledars (1987 - 1991) were fantastic and offered some of the best TR theme portrays ever. We could use more of those.