SS High Leader Prototype Dagger - Anyone Ever Encountered One Before? Oldtimers?

[james m]

What about the one Maederer had for sale at the SOS two years ago? I'm not saying it was legit. but he certainly didn't have a repro price tag on it!
Jim

[Frogprince]

Funny how there were some "tricky" people that would publish bad items in books and call them good! IMO some of this was done by accident but others used collectors ignorance to their advantage! I agree with John P this is the ONLY know real deal. Nice dagger! Really cool!

I quoted Atwood earlier from 1965 who said at least 4 copies (by Mueller) were sent to SS headquarters in Berlin for examination and “proofing”.

Tom Wittmann reprinted a 1969 letter to Atwood from Mueller, where Mueller says that he sold the supposed “1939 Dachau SS prototype” to Atwood (with no mention of how he still had possession of this supposed prototype). And that in 1963 he sold four additional Damascus bladed “SS Prototype daggers” dagger to Atwood made from leftover parts. The letter also mentioning Mueller selling (among a number of other things) the “notorious” (TW’s words not mine) Damascus bladed “SS” letter openers. Wittmann, if I remember it correctly, also stated that there were more than four known “Mueller SS Prototypes” currently in collections.

An accident? A coincidence? Or is it an example of multiple individuals taking advantage of others? FP

[John Pepera]

Frogprince,

To be honest, factual and directly to the point.<O

All of the concocted, fabricated stories (and daggers) are exactly what we heard in our more tender years,
'FANTACY & FAIRY TALES'

<OJohn

[Bob Hritz]

Frogprince,

To be honest, factual and directly to the point.<O

All of the concocted, fabricated stories (and daggers) are exactly what we heard in our more tender years,
'FANTACY & FAIRY TALES'

<OJohn

I am in agreement. Other than John's dagger, I have never heard of another that passed muster of authenticity. For the record, I do fancy SS items and have been around a few years.

Bob Hritz

[Frogprince]

Frogprince,

To be honest, factual and directly to the point.<O

All of the concocted, fabricated stories (and daggers) are exactly what we heard in our more tender years,
'FANTACY & FAIRY TALES'

<OJohn

I do not now, and did not have any quarrel or problem with that. What I found more interesting with the Mueller letter and the Atwood fakes was not that they were created after the war. It was the 1963 date, which is in conflict with some present day folks who maintain that it was not profitable to make batches of higher grade fakes back then.

With one other thing that I found interesting, being the fact being that it was the Coppel company that was selected to make the prototype. A company which is or was considered by many collectors to be too “tainted” to be acceptable to the RZM that was selected to make the prototype. (Knowing of course that it was a major supplier to the German Police, who were under Himmler’s [nominal] control. And that it was “Aryanized” at some point.) FP

[james m]

What about the one Maederer had for sale at the SOS two years ago? I'm not saying it was legit. but he certainly didn't have a repro price tag on it!
Jim

Ok: Then I'll re-ask this question thats been ignored so far. If I remember correctly the price on the "Himmler Prototype" dagger was $40k which was hardly a repro asking price.
Jim

[John Pepera]

Frogprince,

Your reflection on the time line is correct as far as these stories are laid out but this only goes to prove and document the depths of the inaccuracies and fallacies of the fairy tales.<O

Yes, you are correct that the Copple family was 'tainted' but I can only surmise somewhere, somehow and concerning somebody, money may have been the motivating factor.

<OJohn<O

[Frogprince]

Ok: Then I'll re-ask this question thats been ignored so far. If I remember correctly the price on the "Himmler Prototype" dagger was $40k which was hardly a repro asking price.
Jim

Certainly not a "repro" price, was it the white gripped type (with or w/o a white grip) at $40 K? Or one of the (at least five) Atwood/Mueller "Prototypes" at $40K? Of course after what Tom Wittmann wrote in his book, I would be surprised if anyone but the most "adventurous" of collectors would take a chance (IMHO).

Frogprince,

Your reflection on the time line is correct as far as these stories are laid out but this only goes to prove and document the depths of the inaccuracies and fallacies of the fairy tales.<O

Yes, you are correct that the Copple family was 'tainted' but I can only surmise somewhere, somehow and concerning somebody, money may have been the motivating factor.

<OJohn<O

That works for me. I cannot say for sure, but I think that Joe W may have some insight on the financial aspects of SS contracts (if I'm remembering correctly what I saw in TW's book). That said, from a general knowledge point of view, Göring was not the only one who amassed a fortune as the result of his position. Himmler and those doing his bidding created a very large business/financial empire of their own.

Regards, FP

[Mark C. Yerger]

A lot of stuff known to be junk, all fake, or parts, has suddenly been "accepted" as real as it's aged 40+ years. Also money motivates a "changed mind."

The gurus of today will sell you anything, now it's:

"Once thought to be a fantasy piece, the one on my site is obviously real. I got it 4th hand from a picker in Idaho who got it from the vet's stepson's ex-wife's daughter from her third marriage, and I will give you a certificate of authenticity that says so."

[Serge M.]

What about the one Maederer had for sale at the SOS two years ago? I'm not saying it was legit. but he certainly didn't have a repro price tag on it!
Jim

Jim, Is this the one you are referring too? Very similar to John's but in a case?
If so, I asked Maederer about the "price" at the time and he said it was...............$150,000.

I would also like to ask John if he had ever had a Chance to examine this one as both had appeared in Wittmann's book and look very similar to each other but not exact.

Regards,
-wagner-

[james m]

Wags:
I believe thats the one. I got some very evasive answers when I made direct inquiries about it and was also told I couldn't take any pictures. Realistically I know and understand that most forum members will not make any direct statements about the wares of the more prestegeous dealers and I understand the reasoning behind this.
Jim

[Serge M.]

Wags:
I believe thats the one. I got some very evasive answers when I made direct inquiries about it and was also told I couldn't take any pictures. Realistically I know and understand that most forum members will not make any direct statements about the wares of the more prestegeous dealers and I understand the reasoning behind this.
Jim

Hi Jim,
OK, lets see if I got this right.....
If you or I posted this dagger as an item from our collection then we would have an open debate with collectors stating their normal "Pro n Con" views on the item. A high-end dealer has the same item- and it goes dead, except for perhaps emails and whispers with promises of confidentiality?

-wagner-

[james m]

Wags:
I'm not looking to turn this into a "Lets tee off on the dealer community" but I agree the standards(dealer vs. collector) are apparentely different.
Jim

[Serge M.]

Frogprince,

To be honest, factual and directly to the point.<O

All of the concocted, fabricated stories (and daggers) are exactly what we heard in our more tender years,
'FANTACY & FAIRY TALES'

<OJohn

..

QUOTE=Bob Hritz;3919112]I am in agreement. Other than John's dagger, I have never heard of another that passed muster of authenticity. For the record, I do fancy SS items and have been around a few years.

Bob Hritz[/QUOTE]

Well I think we got the answer anyway Jim.
Most of us know that we don't want to raise the wrath of the 'Dagger Gods'.

-wagner-

[Seiler]

..

QUOTE=Bob Hritz;3919112]I am in agreement. Other than John's dagger, I have never heard of another that passed muster of authenticity. For the record, I do fancy SS items and have been around a few years.

Bob Hritz

Well I think we got the answer anyway Jim.
Most of us know that we don't want to raise the wrath of the 'Dagger Gods'.

-wagner-[/QUOTE]

Oh Heaven forbid.
Seiler