dak cap

[ebony]

And picture worth a thousand words, here is an image of one of another of 90th Lights success stories todate. He got this SS cuff title, we all laughed our rings off and said what a sad looking fake. He said "no it has got potential, I am going to hold on to it and research it further" He had it for years long before the Bender book on them or we could ask anyone on the internet.

"Sad looking fake alright" and one of 6 known originals left in the world today

[NZMark]

...and a 3rd KIWI in succession. Mr Singer - your pithy, petulent comment adds nothing to the discussion of the cap. Focus on the item, please, not one of the members. A bloody pity another educational thread deteriorates again due to personalities.
Seasons Greetings
Mark

[John Hodgin]

And picture worth a thousand words, here is an image of one of another of 90th Lights success stories todate. He got this SS cuff title, we all laughed our rings off and said what a sad looking fake. He said "no it has got potential, I am going to hold on to it and research it further" He had it for years long before the Bender book on them or we could ask anyone on the internet.

"Sad looking fake alright" and one of 6 known originals left in the world today

None of which has any bearing on the cap being discussed.

Am happy to wager that you'll never find any caps like the one discussed on this thread which were brought home by Kiwi veterans.

[90th Light]

"The biggest thing against them is the fact that I have not found one advanced collector of DAK or tropical German who has ever had one from a veteran source. No one had ever seen this maker until the early 1990's when they appeared found in Poland in unissued condition. Another factor also against them is the analysis of German photos of the time has not revealed any caps of that makers style being worn".

Chris[/QUOTE]

Hello John,

I stated this in post number 14 and I have never in any of my posts stated that I believe the caps to be original. What I have stated is that I am opened minded about them and continung to look into them.

Just because some people say "fake" and others "genuine", tells us nothing. With all things I investigate further and weigh up the positive indicators against the negative indicators.

I will repeat also, no one knows where these caps were made, They were found in Poland at the same time as the Pink Smocks and George.P's Panzer find. Imagine if it was some unknown had found the "Lago Berlin" Panzer caps then I wonder how many would be singing a different tune on those as well.

The SS items are examples that my self and ebony have shared on this thread to show quite clearly how grey-area items can finally be recognised as the original items that they are despite the "doubters". I have however stated quite clearly that I am not holding my breath on these unmarked tropical M40's and that they are in a "grey-grey-grey-area"

This does not remove my interest in them or my continuing to study them.

Regards, Chris

[90th Light]

Am happy to wager that you'll never find any caps like the one discussed on this thread which were brought home by Kiwi veterans.

I can answer that now and the answer is zero

but this still leaves the unanswered questions which to my knowledge has never been addressed and that is;

1/ Who were the makers of the tropical caps being worn on the Eastern front ???

2/ Where they coming from the same distribution centers as the ones going to Afrika or were they coming other centers located in the north focused on supply of the Russian front ???

Thus gaps in what we do or do not know,

Chris

[Tim O'Keefe]

1/ Who were the makers of the tropical caps being worn on the Eastern front ???

2/ Where they coming from the same distribution centers as the ones going to Afrika or were they coming other centers located in the north focused on supply of the Russian front ???

Chris

Hi Chris

This is very interesting question. Suspect that there were more tropical caps in the southern Eastern Front then in Afrika when you compare the numbers of troops and amount of time involved. Anybody got an answer to this ?

[OSS]

I have listenened with interest to the hypothesis put forward by several members that perhaps the Heeresbekleidungsamt may have contracted with obscure makers using variant manufacturing techniques and utilizing variant materials and specifications for particular fronts and even sectors of fronts, all in an effort to explain why certain items fail to conform to known and universally accepted originals. This is IMO a form of denial and an attempt to rationalize away any doubt you may have about a questionable item . With the number of excellent and convincing fakes out there today this kind of "openmindedness" can be expensive.

[Tim O'Keefe]

This is very interesting question. Suspect that there were more tropical caps in the southern Eastern Front then in Afrika when you compare the numbers of troops and amount of time involved. Anybody got an answer to this ?

I have listenened with interest to the hypothesis put forward by several members that perhaps the Heeresbekleidungsamt may have contracted with obscure makers using variant manufacturing techniques and utilizing variant materials and specifications for particular fronts and even sectors of fronts, all in an effort to explain why certain items fail to conform to known and universally accepted originals. This is IMO a form of denial and an attempt to rationalize away any doubt you may have about a questionable item . With the number of excellent and convincing fakes out there today this kind of "openmindedness" can be expensive.

Hello

Not sure You understand this inquiry. We are asking if anyone has info on the tropical caps used in Russia, makers etc ? (do you know ?) Not trying to turn this bad cap or others into good ones. Maybe they were the same makers of caps used in Afrika (which is what i suspect), maybe not ? Thats what am trying to learn...

[NZMark]

...and a very good question, Tim.
Mark

[jacquesf]

I have listenened with interest to the hypothesis put forward by several members that perhaps the Heeresbekleidungsamt may have contracted with obscure makers using variant manufacturing techniques and utilizing variant materials and specifications for particular fronts and even sectors of fronts, all in an effort to explain why certain items fail to conform to known and universally accepted originals. This is IMO a form of denial and an attempt to rationalize away any doubt you may have about a questionable item . With the number of excellent and convincing fakes out there today this kind of "openmindedness" can be expensive.

I cannot agree more. It is a very dangerous trend that can hurt, especially younger and newer collectors. It is a very faker friendly approach and make it so much easier for fakers to justify their products and create a market for the "questionable" . I have no problem with an item spesific analysis and study, but a broad generalised and vague approach to all questionable items is a big problem. All it leads to is for sellers of fakes to claim, when confronted: "There is a disagreement regarding the authenticity, some people like them". Jacques

[Tim O'Keefe]

"There is a disagreement regarding the authenticity, some people like them". Jacques

Jacques, Fakers will say this anyways regardless of what collectors have written. They will say anything to sell their junk.

What about the thousands of tropical caps worn in Russia ? This is a subject that has not been covered very well....

[Mark Gibson]

I'd be more inclined to believe that the Southern Russia used caps were all from the same factories churning out caps for North Africa and the Mediteranean. Perhaps many of these are in our collections already as the used but unfaded examples. For instance this Lago Berlin manufactured cap has definitely seen use, is named (Feldwebel Gurtner) but looks for all intence purposes to be near mint from the outside (apart from the removed soutache). Maybe this is a Russian Front cap.

Mark

P.S. I was originally going to say (tongue in cheek) that perhaps they were all Clemens Wagner but didn't want it taken the wrong way.

[Mark Gibson]

There were many makers of tropical caps, quite a few of which have not been seen by old time collectors who obtained caps directly from vets. Any of these makers could very well have been supplying troops destined for tropical zones other than North Africa and the mediteranean.
The Clemens Wagner caps are a great example. How many of these have been obtained from North Africa vets? Apparently none directly. Were these issued to troops heading to Russia, possibly explaining why they are that scarce that most of us didn't acknowledge them (apart from as repros due to this makers name having been used)? Another example is the Erich Bergmann without grommets previously in BenVK's collections. How many of us had heard of that maker? Apart from Ben's the only other which I know of was the Signals soutached example which recently sold. I'm sure a few of you could come up with other makers which aren't all that well known.
Just a few things to think about.

As for the cap which started this thread, it certainly isn't one that I would be interested in adding to the collection.

Mark

[John Hodgin]

I can answer that now and the answer is zero

but this still leaves the unanswered questions which to my knowledge has never been addressed and that is;

1/ Who were the makers of the tropical caps being worn on the Eastern front ???

2/ Where they coming from the same distribution centers as the ones going to Afrika or were they coming other centers located in the north focused on supply of the Russian front ???

Thus gaps in what we do or do not know,

Chris

Chris! This is pure theory with zero basis in fact. It may be interesting theory, and fun to think up, and perhaps actually apply to late war produced uniforms as SS M43 caps, but should not be applied to M40 caps and Heer tropical uniforms! It is simply foolish to apply this thinking to caps and uniforms produced primarily from 1940 to 1943.

Example: Luftwaffe side caps were produced by dozens of manufacturers, not only in Germany, but from Holland and Belgium across to Poland and Czechoslovakia. They ALL have common design. A Czech manufacturer did not produce caps with differing details from a manufacturer in Holland. The same can be said of Luftwaffe tropical tunics, überfallhosen, Meyer caps, and Luftwaffe tropical shirts.

I am not referring here to any field produced uniforms or unique small order pieces as cuff bands, so there is no need to compare them.

With respect,
John

[sscrooge]

just got the pics and thanks again all for the repliesrgds Dave