dak cap

[sscrooge]

d

[B. N. Singer]

...and a 3rd KIWI in succession. Mr Singer - your pithy, petulent comment adds nothing to the discussion of the cap. Focus on the item, please, not one of the members. A bloody pity another educational thread deteriorates again due to personalities.
Seasons Greetings
Mark

Your right, thank you I need to focus better. This hat can be put next to a “vet acquired SS sleeve” I have recently seen.

B. N. Singer

[sonderverband]

My feeling is this: if we know everything about everything in this hobby, then where's the fun? We don't want to be foolish and believe EVERYTHING is a rare oddity, but I think the quest and adventure of potentially finding these things is half the fun.

I'm no fool, but I'm not jaded either. I'm just enjoying all facets of the hobby.

Earl

[piw]

Well said Earl

[TONY Q.W.]

Not the ones (the grommets) I would be happy to see. Hard to say if they are aluminum made but besides, from the look of them they are not my liking. Just my opinion of course.

[NZMark]

Not the ones (the grommets) I would be happy to see. Hard to say if they are aluminum made but besides, from the look of them they are not my liking. Just my opinion of course.

Agree totally, Tony.

[tropenmilitaria]

Yes, shouldn't those grommet "prongs" be meshed down instead of bulging up like a flower? And they look weird in shape also but waiting to hear from those more in the know with tropical caps.

[Bond]

Do the washers look a bit flat?

Jerry

[Tim O'Keefe]

Hi Dave

Thanks for the additional photos, confirms my doubts also.

As far as caps used in Russia, seems no one knows for sure...
But agree with John's point. There were only six makers of tropical caps in 1940 if i am not mistaken. But between 20 - 30 by 1943 as the need arose. Actually not sure of the exact number of different makers ?

& Mark G, I was originally going to say (tongue in cheek) that perhaps they were all Clemens Wagner but didn't want it taken the wrong way. Good one but at least we know they do exist

[90th Light]

Your right, thank you I need to focus better. This hat can be put next to a “vet acquired SS sleeve” I have recently seen.

B. N. Singer

What so a sleeve of an SS tunic from a member of the Prinz Eugene division brought back by a New Zealand soldier of the 22 Battalion from around Trieste in 1945 and picked up by Alvin Shaw who collected this stuff in the 1950's is not original ???

I suppose all the tropical M40 caps which members of the 22nd Battalion 2NZEF brought back are duds too ???

but do not hold back, please share the issues which the cufftitle in post number 46 of this thread has for you ???

or let me guess, in your book P&L did not make SS service medals and Deschler is in fact the only maker ???

And you accuse me of my thinking making me blind thats a good one because when one is too narrow they can not see what is on either side of something,

Chris

[B. N. Singer]

What so a sleeve of an SS tunic from a member of the Prinz Eugene division brought back by a New Zealand soldier of the 22 Battalion from around Trieste in 1945 and picked up by Alvin Shaw who collected this stuff in the 1950's is not original ???

I suppose all the tropical M40 caps which members of the 22nd Battalion 2NZEF brought back are duds too ???

but do not hold back, please share the issues which the cufftitle in post number 46 of this thread has for you ???

or let me guess, in your book P&L did not make SS service medals and Deschler is in fact the only maker ???

And you accuse me of my thinking making me blind thats a good one because when one is too narrow they can not see what is on either side of something,

Chris

No, you are just OPEN MINDED.

B. N. Singer

[90th Light]

Chris! This is pure theory with zero basis in fact. It may be interesting theory, and fun to think up, and perhaps actually apply to late war produced uniforms as SS M43 caps, but should not be applied to M40 caps and Heer tropical uniforms! It is simply foolish to apply this thinking to caps and uniforms produced primarily from 1940 to 1943.

Example: Luftwaffe side caps were produced by dozens of manufacturers, not only in Germany, but from Holland and Belgium across to Poland and Czechoslovakia. They ALL have common design. A Czech manufacturer did not produce caps with differing details from a manufacturer in Holland. The same can be said of Luftwaffe tropical tunics, überfallhosen, Meyer caps, and Luftwaffe tropical shirts.

I am not referring here to any field produced uniforms or unique small order pieces as cuff bands, so there is no need to compare them.

With respect,
John

Yes I agree John and totally correct.

but and there is always a but

Every tropical cap that I have ever seen from a veteran source has come from a New Zealand soldier, an Australian soldier, an American soldier or one of the other allied nations that fought in North Africa, Italy, Balkins, Greece, Europe 1944.

I have never to this day, seen a veteran brought back cap from the eastern front or Germany 1944 like the ones seen being worn in the Battle of Berlin 1945.

Now I can only assume that they were wearing caps by the same makers as the caps from the Afrika/ Italy/ Western front etc and that make sense.

but I would sure like to meet a collector with one from the east or see a collection of such caps via the internet to find out more and learn who some of the makers are.

May be one of our Russian members or a country in that region will read this and post something ???

I have made a study of the 22 Luft-Lande division and they were out fitted with tropical uniforms in early 1941 while still in Russia. The history of that division states quite clearly that because Afrika had priority for all tropical uniforms and equipment already in production that they had to await a new and additonal source of supply so as not to interfer with what was needed for Afrika.

Logistically what did that mean at the time, factories and distribution centers close to 22LL in the east getting organised to produce/ deliver tropical uniforms ???

22LL were the first unit entirely outfitted with tropical in the east. Other units may not have been entirely outfitted but they received a varying proportion of tropical items depending on how far south they were in Russia and the time of the year.

Thus the question, Who were the tropical manufactures whose products went east and from which distribution centers were they sent ???

Regards, Chris

[90th Light]

No, you are just OPEN MINDED.

B. N. Singer

Which is always better than being "narrow-minded"

or even worse "close-minded"

I hope you are having family over for Christmas,

Chris

[NZMark]

Let's stick to the cap, guys or else this thread will be closed and of no further use to the collecting community.
Mark

[ebony]

Yes, shouldn't those grommet "prongs" be meshed down instead of bulging up like a flower? And they look weird in shape also but waiting to hear from those more in the know with tropical caps.

Some makers did it in the "weird flower shape"

All depends on the crimping tool you are using and how hard you hit it

If the shape of the prongs are bad then there is no hope for the maker I show in this image of being original which could not be futher from the truth