Announcement

**Lasse Kongo** · 03-26-2008, 10:18 AM

Originally posted by NTZ View Post

This still bothers me. It is too coincidental to somehow find someone’s initials that match the leather roll stamps found on sweatbands. In the same fonts as they would be if marked. It is almost like they seen it before on a visor and didn’t know what they were but added them because they thought it made it look more authentic.

___________

I can not find any logic in that statement? If someone is making a cap which can not be faulted from the outside and materials, do you think they would just make up anything and write it with a pen to sweatband to make it more authentic? If such a cap where made up by a faker looking like this, I would be quite sure the skills go beyond making strange markings in the sweatband to make it look more authentic!?

Lasse

**Fritz** · 03-26-2008, 10:19 AM

Originally posted by NTZ View Post

I mean was I only thinking Panzeraufklärer in support of panzer units, not infantry.

Yes, but Panzeraufklärer don't necessarily have anything to do with Panzer units. It actually only means that they are "armored recon" units.

Cheers

Fritz

**NTZ** · 03-26-2008, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by Lasse Kongo View Post

___________

I can not find any logic in that statement? If someone is making a cap which can not be faulted from the outside and materials, do you think they would just make up anything and write it with a pen to sweatband to make it more authentic? If such a cap where made up by a faker looking like this, I would be quite sure the skills go beyond making strange markings in the sweatband to make it look more authentic!?

Lasse

I seems logical to Dave and I

**Lasse Kongo** · 03-26-2008, 10:22 AM

Originally posted by NTZ View Post

The other thing I can add is why mark the size on the sweatband and the lining? By no stretch of the imagination were sweatbands pre cut by size. Take a look at 1,000 visors. I am sure they cut a piece of leather that was close or had a standard size of like 60cm’s but the overlaps on the rear of a sweatband can run from a few mm’s to a cm or so. That was the last thing they did after stitching them on. Cut the excess and joined the ends. To mark the size twice makes no sense. At least not to me anyway.

_____________

I think more or less all Pekuro bans where cut to size before the manufacturing of the cap. As well as many others uysing size marked sweatbands.

Also those caps have the size marking written inside the cap somewhere with a pen or a small stamp.

The quality manufacturer had the same overlap all the time on their cap, as long as they used the correct sweatband.

Lasse

**Lasse Kongo** · 03-26-2008, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by phild View Post

I think that part of the problem is that you are focusing in when these units were fitted and designated Panzer DIVISIONS. They (LAH, SSVT and TK) had panzer elements as early as 1939. Panzer elements aside I would want to check if any of these three units also had any recon elements that wore yellow waffenfarben. Maybe this has been determined one way or the other if not I can check my references in a day or so. I think or thought that an SS Cavalry Brigade went into Russia in June 1941, it is a safe bet that if that is the case there were SS Cavalry officers around in 1940.

A bigger question is this:If Peter's cap had White piping and no markings on the underside of the headband would everyone be ok with it? If not then why haven't the other "problems" been raised earlier?

Every time that I see a colored piped SS hat shot down only on the basis that the colored ones are too rare or the cap was made too late to be legit pre-41 I feel that I am hearing a very lame reason to condem a cap.

____________________
Agreed to 100%

Lasse

**NTZ** · 03-26-2008, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by Lasse Kongo View Post

Maybee HB is the initials of the soldier ordering the cap, who knows. I can not see why that would be a issue of the caps authenticity?

I am not sure where I equated the initials with authenticity? I said I thought it was odd so I would want to see this one in hand.

**Lasse Kongo** · 03-26-2008, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by Arran View Post

I find it hard to believe that any one so skilled as to be able to put this hat together would make such a stupid mistake as to simply hand copy what should be stamped...if you can make the hat, surely you can make the stamp- I've seen fake stamps on things many times. It doesn't make sense to go to the trouble of making the hat and obtaining suitable original insignia, then flaking out on the markings...just a thought to be considered...

____________

Naturally! One don´t need some massive logic skills to make that assesement!

Lasse

**Lasse Kongo** · 03-26-2008, 10:25 AM

Originally posted by NTZ View Post

A hands on in a must in this case. That is all I am saying. JM2C

________________

Absolutly! Not even a question about it!

Lasse

**NTZ** · 03-26-2008, 10:27 AM

Lasse you are on a roll, go boy, go

**Lasse Kongo** · 03-26-2008, 10:28 AM

Originally posted by NTZ View Post

The one thing we haven’t discussed with this cap and the reason for my focus on the strength of the SS in 1940 is this. The cap in question is void all maker markings. This is indicative of Kleiderkasse production. If indeed this cap is a Kleiderkasse example it would certainly limit production to the 1940 reg period. I, just like most of you believe these were made post 1940 but certainly by private purchase only. The Kleiderkasse and contract suppliers were certainly not sanctioning the use of non-regulation visors.

___________

I am sure many privat made caps where made without any makers mark from smaller companies. Or as seen just with a stamp inside or a smaller cloth label.

For me I see no reason to limit time of manufacture to 1940. Even if so there where enough of Cavallery and Recon elements even then to make it very possible

Lasse

**Fritz** · 03-26-2008, 10:28 AM

Originally posted by glassmine View Post

Hi Fritz,

this thread is getting good and all the entries seem to be okay so far.

When I put my post in I took ot from your post #76 and that quote of yours missed out the first sentence that states Panzer Recon.

Originally Posted by NTZ
I am pretty sure they had no panzer units in 1940.

If you had left that bit in I wouldn't have made my comment as I realise that these 8 wheelers were part of that org.

Keep posting the good work
all the best Glassmine

Yes, I should not have delated that. Sorry...

Fritz

**Lasse Kongo** · 03-26-2008, 10:30 AM

Originally posted by glassmine View Post

These are good points, I was half way through a reply when I lost my pc link and it half posted. I will continue

JT, another member and I were talking about SS panzer strengths at a show in Malvern recently and he quoted similar figures to what NTZ has regarding Panzer troops in the W SS at the early part of the war, those eight wheel things were more like command cars and would not give much armour protection if things got hot.

____________

Are we really discussing armoured protection here? I thought it where a cap?

Lasse

**Lasse Kongo** · 03-26-2008, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by NTZ View Post

I am not sure where I equated the initials with authenticity? I said I thought it was odd so I would want to see this one in hand.

___________

That is fine naturally, how could anyone argue with that!

Lasse

**phild** · 03-26-2008, 10:52 AM

It does not matter if there was only one yellow piped crusher made in 1940...this could be it!

Fight it all you want, but I will win the point every time that simply dismissing something based on rarity or probability is a loosing tactic every time.

Either we can examine an item and make an assesment on it's physical merits or faults, or WE CAN NOT. All the specualtion on what units had some kind of PZ recon and when and how many and what piping they may of worn and when a SS clothing store may have sold or not sold a piped cap is fine but in the end it tells us little.

In the end we have the item...does it show itself to be original or not?

We all talk big about not buying the story and all that but it seems in fact that is what we want to buy!

**Lasse Kongo** · 03-26-2008, 10:53 AM

Originally posted by phild View Post

It does not matter if there was only one yellow piped crusher made in 1940...this could be it!

Fight it all you want, but I will win the point every time that simply dismissing something based on rarity or probability is a loosing tactic every time.

Either we can examine an item and make an assesment on it's physical merits or fault, or WE CAN NOT. All the specualtion on what units had some kind of PZ recon and when and who many and what piping they may of worn and when a SS clothing store may have sold or not a piped cap is fine but in the end it tells us little.

In the end we have the item...does it show itself to be original or not?

We all talk big about not buying the story and all that but it seems in fact that is what we want to buy!

__________

Amen to that!!

Lasse

Announcement

WSS Yellow Piped Crusher

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Users Viewing this Thread