WSS Yellow Piped Crusher

[Dave Kane]

Ben, take control of your thread!!!

Cav. piped SS allegedly 'privately purchased' and assembled in a 'cottage industry' or by a 'tailor.....etc etc' and all without a maker mark, advertisment other than what appear to be silly marks on the sweatband!

The "HB"...inspector initials? Ready cut lengths of sweatband in size 58 or ???

Tongue in cheek....only the SS didn't sweat or use hair oil so CELLO diamonds weren't used???

[NTZ]

The "HB"...inspector initials? Ready cut lengths of sweatband in size 58 or ???

This still bothers me. It is too coincidental to somehow find someone’s initials that match the leather roll stamps found on sweatbands. In the same fonts as they would be if marked. It is almost like they seen it before on a visor and didn’t know what they were but added them because they thought it made it look more authentic.

[derek]

Ben,
I would be happy to help provide some info if I can. What exactly were you looking for?
Derek

[Dave Kane]

This still bothers me. It is too coincidental to somehow find someone’s initials that match the leather roll stamps found on sweatbands. In the same fonts as they would be if marked. It is almost like they seen it before on a visor and didn’t know what they were but added them because they thought it made it look more authentic.

Give the man a CIGAR!!!

[NTZ]

The other thing I can add is why mark the size on the sweatband and the lining? By no stretch of the imagination were sweatbands pre cut by size. Take a look at 1,000 visors. I am sure they cut a piece of leather that was close or had a standard size of like 60cm’s but the overlaps on the rear of a sweatband can run from a few mm’s to a cm or so. That was the last thing they did after stitching them on. Cut the excess and joined the ends. To mark the size twice makes no sense. At least not to me anyway.

[Bobwirtz]

In 1940 the Waffen-SS was still very small and their support units were also very small. You would not have had that many officers in those support units and not all Waffen-SS officers bought the branch colored service caps.

I believe that even as an Infantry Brigade, the LSSAH had armored cars and the men manning those were wearing black panzer uniforms. And these units had tanks and assault guns all along to support their infantry units. These were then expanded to SS-Panzergrenadier and SS-Panzer divisions in 1942-43 when they had a full regiment of tanks.

Also remember... all this talk about officers purchasing these caps all through the war... yes, the troops ignored many regulations, but the clothing industry obeyed the regulations because for them it was a living. So when the order was rescinded in November 1940, many tailors who had SS officer color piped visors in their display windows, more than likely pulled them out and converted them to Army. After that time, an officer would have to special order one. I just don't believe that many bothered with it.

Bob

[phild]

You better do some more reading. LAH and TK were not transformed into pz Div until well after 1940. You also might want to take note of the total strength of the SS in 1940. Not very impressive but boy do we see a lot of color pipes.

I think that part of the problem is that you are focusing in when these units were fitted and designated Panzer DIVISIONS. They (LAH, SSVT and TK) had panzer elements as early as 1939. Panzer elements aside I would want to check if any of these three units also had any recon elements that wore yellow waffenfarben. Maybe this has been determined one way or the other if not I can check my references in a day or so. I think or thought that an SS Cavalry Brigade went into Russia in June 1941, it is a safe bet that if that is the case there were SS Cavalry officers around in 1940.

A bigger question is this:If Peter's cap had White piping and no markings on the underside of the headband would everyone be ok with it? If not then why haven't the other "problems" been raised earlier?

Every time that I see a colored piped SS hat shot down only on the basis that the colored ones are too rare or the cap was made too late to be legit pre-41 I feel that I am hearing a very lame reason to condem a cap.

[SgtB]

Every time that I see a colored piped SS hat shot down only on the basis that the colored ones are too rare or the cap was made too late to be legit pre-41 I feel that I am hearing a very lame reason to condem a cap.

Quite possibly the most intelligent statement I have ever read on this forum.

[Arran]

I find it hard to believe that any one so skilled as to be able to put this hat together would make such a stupid mistake as to simply hand copy what should be stamped...if you can make the hat, surely you can make the stamp- I've seen fake stamps on things many times. It doesn't make sense to go to the trouble of making the hat and obtaining suitable original insignia, then flaking out on the markings...just a thought to be considered...

[John Pic]

The SS Totenkopf Reiter standarte took part in the invasion of Poland in 1939 it became the SS Cavalry Brigade sometime in 1940. For certain they wore the golden yellow piping.

I dont think its a fake hat, just my opinion.

[Mike C]

As an aside, Division Kempf (Poland 1939) and the SS-VT Divison had W-SS reconnaisance battalions - you can see several pictures of their SdKfz 222/223/232 vehicles in the Edwards and Pruett book on panzer uniforms. As I remember, there were also at least two W-SS cavalry standarten in 1939.

While very skeptical of most things W-SS, I do believe that coloured piping was more common than generally accepted. There is no question that visors were piped post-1940...the question is just how common was this trend? Hard to say but I would note for example the points made by Edwards/Pruett and Mike Beaver on the late-war trend of piping W-SS insignia (and occasionally collars) in waffenfarbe (to include one RKT who used yellow piping) on their panzer and assault gun wrappers. It would seem natural that visor piping would follow suit. On example is RKT and Hauptsturmfuhrer Riefkogel's (KIA July 30, 1944) panzer piped visor which is in a private collection.

One of the reasons of course that we do not have a real understanding of the use of W-SS piping is the fact that the lighter shades are very hard to detect in period photos - which limits the value of a recommended photo search.

Mike

[NTZ]

Every time that I see a colored piped SS hat shot down only on the basis that the colored ones are too rare or the cap was made too late to be legit pre-41 I feel that I am hearing a very lame reason to condem a cap.

I am not shooting down I am asking logical questions. The size of the SS in 1940 was extramly small. The amount of men that would have been able to wear color piping is even smaller. Just pointing out the rarity. Take that into account along with out of the norm markings on the SB and IMO it puts this cap in the category of a hands on cap. It is not one that can be authenticated via photos. A hands on in a must in this case. That is all I am saying. JM2C

[Fritz]

By 1940 there were 5 complete waffen ss divisions with quite a large number of first losses which required replacement personal. Not including the additional personal from the Junkerschulen etc.. And don't forget that there were many more caps and uniforms around than men.

I also remember that one picture taken on the elbe river in 45 showing a waffen ss officier with a colored cap.

Nevertheless I think that the time frame question is a general question and not a question in regard to this particular cap.

Cheers

Fritz

[Fritz]

but the clothing industry obeyed the regulations because for them it was a living.

That is not true, many things went very wrong.

Cheers

Fritz

[NTZ]

The one thing we haven’t discussed with this cap and the reason for my focus on the strength of the SS in 1940 is this. The cap in question is void all maker markings. This is indicative of Kleiderkasse production. If indeed this cap is a Kleiderkasse example it would certainly limit production to the 1940 reg period. I, just like most of you believe these were made post 1940 but certainly by private purchase only. The Kleiderkasse and contract suppliers were certainly not sanctioning the use of non-regulation visors.