Originally posted by phild
View Post
-
The first part of your question, NONE! To the second question, no it is not impossible, just improbable. -
That is your original post....Originally posted by NTZ View Post
I am under the impression that you didn't know the difference between a Panzeraufklärer and a Panzer when you wrote that(?). You said "they had no panzer units in 1940" and I took it that therefore one could rule out "pz recon" (Panzeraufklärer)...?
"Panzeraufklärer" are armored units that could be part of a infantry division that has no real "Panzer" units whatsoever. With the early ss divisions (Infanteriedivision, mot.) that was the case, at least with LAH, Verfügungsdivison and T. I am not sure about the 4th SS though.
Cheers
FritzComment
-
Better check your history Fritz. The LAH was listed as a Regiment (although it had the strength of a reinforced Brigade) through the Balkan Campaign and was built and designated a Division after 30 April 1941. The SS-VT had been a division for a long time, previous to the French Campaign in May 1940. The Totenkopf and SS-Polizei-Divisions were still building during the French Campaign and were finally at division strength in April 1941 before Operation Barbarossa. The Wiking Division was ready for combat in Russia in April 1941. The only unit that was division strength in 1940 was SS-VT. Nord was a Kampfgruppe in February 1941 and a Division in September 1941.Originally posted by Fritz View Post
And your statement, "And don't forget that there were many more caps and uniforms around than men." is not true. During the formation of the Totenkopf and SS-Polizei-Divisions during the French Campaign, the fledgling SS-Clothing-Works could not meet the demands for uniforms for two divisions so many of these troops were outfitted from Army depots and stocks.
And in reference to colors, reconnaissance before mid-June 1942 was a copper-brown and was changed at that time to golden-yellow. So this cap would have to be cavalry. In 1940 there were two SS-Totenkopf-Kavallerie-Standarte. These were converted into Regiments and formed into SS-Kavallerie-Division in 1941. It officially became SS-Kavallerie-Division "Florian Geyer" in March 1944 and consisted of four SS-Kavallerie-Regiments (15-18).
BobComment
-
In all honesty Panzeraufklärer did not even cross my mind.Originally posted by Fritz View PostComment
-
Originally posted by Bobwirtz View Post
"Official" division status:
1. I have no exact date handy, late 1939
2. V-Division, october 10th 1939
3. Totenkopf november 1st 1939
4. Polizei, october 1st 1939 (which had a special status)
5. Wiking, november 20th 1940
That was when these units had status of divisions. It is true that many units weren't at 100% by that time but they counted many more men than just a regiment would do.
Cheers
FritzComment
-
Comment
-
I'd bet that there were a few hundred SS officers who wore gold yellow piping around in 1940.
Each battlion (squadron) could have easily 30 branch (cav) officers and if there were 2 regiments in 1940 that would mean a couple of hundred men.
I have been trying to pry out an admission on this subject and some others for years that rationalizing the probable rarity of an item does NOT make an example of that item a fake.
A ask again and again: If this crusher was white piped and had no marking written under the band would ANYONE being calling it a fake?
If so, why?Comment
-
1. That does all qualify as ss uniforms as they were used by the ss and that is what counts in that matter. It doesn't matter if it is a converted heer M36 or a "pure" ss tunic, after all both are ss tunics.Originally posted by Bobwirtz View Post
2. Officers could go to any cap/uniform maker and order the cap, or two or three as long as they had the money to pay for them and fabric was available. For sure there was a limit but up to two-three sets per officer would be realistic IMO.
Cheers
FritzComment
-
I mean was I only thinking Panzeraufklärer in support of panzer units, not infantry.Originally posted by Fritz View PostComment
-
Originally posted by phild View Post
Lets see
((200 X A)X B)= Y
A= number of officers who actually bought a color piped
B= The survival rate of SS visors or SS clothing in general
Y= Not very many
Comment
-
______________Originally posted by NTZ View Post1942? Two years after regs. Lasse I don’t doubt “some” officers bent the rules after 1940 but don’t use that as an excuse to justify the elusive color pipes we see everywhere. As for period photos, please direct me to these hundreds of photos of color piped visors. I have seen very, very, very few period photos of color pipes when compared to photos of white piped. In fact most I have seen have been of one or two individuals in multiple photos. Put your money where your mouth is and start a thread “color pipes in period photos” Lets see how many you can find. 
Well, I have not seen 1000´s naturally. But on the back of my head I have seen a couple maybee approx 15 different ones.
LasseLast edited by Lasse Kongo; 03-26-2008, 10:35 AM.Comment
-
-
____________________Originally posted by Dave Kane View PostBen, take control of your thread!!!
Cav. piped SS allegedly 'privately purchased' and assembled in a 'cottage industry' or by a 'tailor.....etc etc' and all without a maker mark, advertisment other than what appear to be silly marks on the sweatband!
The "HB"...inspector initials? Ready cut lengths of sweatband in size 58 or ???
Tongue in cheek....only the SS didn't sweat or use hair oil so CELLO diamonds weren't used???
Maybee HB is the initials of the soldier ordering the cap, who knows. I can not see why that would be a issue of the caps authenticity?
As I recall, many makers like Pekuro and others have sizes on the backside of their visorcaps.
Pekuro and Erel crusher caps for Heer troops where manufactured in vast numbers without any sweatshields. I would say it is as many crsuhers made with ot without them.
LasseComment
-
Originally posted by Bobwirtz View Post
There is reason to believe that this is not true. If you look at Tychsen's uniform in Mike Beaver's book (page 143) you will see that he wore exactly this Waffenfarbe with "A" cyphers, as you know "A" stands for "Aufklärungsabteilung" which according to my information he has already left in 1941.
It would be very interesting to see if copper brown was really worn by the ss recon units that long or if it was the cavalry tone that they have used very early in order to match the army's units and to avoid using the same color that "another" ss section used.
There is a lot of reference material that suggests that and Tychsen's uniform would fit that theory.
Cheers
FritzComment
-
Hi Fritz,Originally posted by Fritz View Post
this thread is getting good and all the entries seem to be okay so far.
When I put my post in I took ot from your post #76 and that quote of yours missed out the first sentence that states Panzer Recon.
Originally Posted by NTZ
I am pretty sure they had no panzer units in 1940.
If you had left that bit in I wouldn't have made my comment as I realise that these 8 wheelers were part of that org.
Keep posting the good work
all the best GlassmineComment
Comment