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    #136
    Originally posted by John Pic View Post
    Derek...Do you realize what you have just done? Tossed all the collector claptrap about crushers on these forums out the door for the last several years. So if i read correctly crushers were a privately ordered non regulation item and that it was really the wearers choice if he wanted non regulation color piping on his non regulation cap?
    So were private purchase visor caps John! They were odered exactly the same way, from the same makers, through the same channels

    Comment

      #137
      Originally posted by John Pic View Post
      Derek...Do you realize what you have just done? Tossed all the collector claptrap about crushers on these forums out the door for the last several years. So if i read correctly crushers were a privately ordered non regulation item and that it was really the wearers choice if he wanted non regulation color piping on his non regulation cap?
      Interesting points above. I would like to know, because I do not know, if crushers were offered via the SS officer clothing office and if they were...what period of time/dates we they?

      I have never seen the regulation stateing that they were offical or even authorized for officer wear and I have in fact seen several published references stating the opposite to be the case.

      I know from looking at hundreds and hundreds of period photos that SS officers wore these caps with black velvet or similar textile black bands and used all metal, Bevo and flatwire and combination of all of those as insignia.

      My question is does anyone know if the SS officer clothing system ever stocked SS officer type crushers?

      Comment

        #138
        If a SS officer wanted to order a color piped visor or crusher after 1940 they certainly could. It was just outside of the Kleiderkasse. Now that last few posts bring up a very interesting question taking us back to the subject visor. If indeed the crusher was non-regulation and could not be purchased from the Kleiderkasse then why does the subject visor have all the signs of a Kleiderkasse visor? Certainly Joe Blow maker would have been proud of his work and marked the visor with a sweat shield like every single other private purchase visor, Heer, SS, Luft, etc. You can’t have it both ways John. It is either private purchse or it is not!

        Comment

          #139
          Proove its not.Derek so far has offered some ey opening evidence.
          You say that color piping was phased out by 1941...Derek says leather visors were prohibited before 1940 so you can it appears have it both ways.
          Last edited by John Pic; 03-27-2008, 12:16 PM.

          Comment

            #140
            Originally posted by John Pic View Post
            Proove its not.Derek so far has offered some ey opening evidence.
            You say that color piping was phased out by 1941...Derek says leather visors were prohibited before 1940 so you can it appears have it both ways.
            John NEVER did I ever say color piped could not be private purchased after 1940. NEVER did I say crushers could not be purchased at any time.

            What Derek is showing is what was available though the Kleiderkasse. So I ask you, is the subject cap a private purchase or a Kleiderkasse?

            Comment

              #141
              NTZ roll up your unraveled ball of yarn and prove the cap is bad or good. you offer nothing except lengthy post and dead end analysis.

              How would I know if it were purchased privately or through the Kleiderkasse I wsnt there.

              I personally think Kleiderkasse were not unlike modern day uniform shops offering bot regulation issue and items for private purchase after all a good businessman wants to make money.No one here ever visited a Kleiderkasse so we just dont know. I do visit a uniform shop regularly for my items and if I want to can supplement them with items not in my companies regulations for wear.In fact I bought a hood for my gortex jacket which is against company regs but everyone uses them anyway and nothing is said about it.
              Last edited by John Pic; 03-27-2008, 12:36 PM.

              Comment

                #142
                Originally posted by John Pic View Post
                I personally think Kleiderkasse were not unlike modern day uniform shops offering bot regulation issue and items for private purchase after all a good businessman wants to make money.No one here ever visited a Kleiderkasse so we just dont know. I do visit a uniform shop regularly for my items and if I want to can supplement them with items not in my companies regulations for wear.In fact I bought a hood for my gortex jacket which is against company regs but everyone uses them anyway and nothing is said about it.


                John, first I have said now multiple times in this thread that a hands on is the only way. From pics I can't say it is good nor can I say it is bad. There are somethings that do say, hey look at me a bit closer!

                As for how the Kleiderkasse worked, well you are wrong. Derek can tell you that. All items were ordered through the catalog or at a Kleiderkasse store. What they sold was what they sold. You could not just walk in and place a custom order at your wim.

                Comment

                  #143
                  Hi Derek, what year is that Kleiderkasse catalogue from?

                  Comment

                    #144
                    My official police department visor hat was very uncomfortable, with a rigid vinyl sweatband and vinyl lining, over the fabric. I had a visor had made my Manor Hatters, not an authorized maker, and wore it every day, when I was in uniform. It was so well liked, that another officer purchased it, when I retired. He just went back to Mannor Hatters and ordered a new sweat band to replace my old leather band.

                    I had my choice of materials and visor materials and had it made to match the 'regulation' hat. Not one of my superior officers ever notiuced it was a custom hat, unless I laid it down, on the top. Of course, it cost 4 times that of a standard, off the rack hat, but it did look good and wore very comfortably.

                    I would think that any maker, who liked to see profits, would make any hat a soldier requested. Believe me, Himmler and company had far more to keep them occupied than going after tailors and hatmakers because they fulfilled a customer's orders. They only thing that concerned them was the RZM receiving it's taxes for officially procured items. I have little doubt that hats, for officers, could br purchased from anyone who made hats, in any country where the soldiers were billited.

                    Bob Hritz
                    In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

                    Duct tape can't fix stupid, but it can muffle the sound.

                    Comment

                      #145
                      Ben,
                      The catalogue is for 1940.
                      Derek

                      Comment

                        #146
                        So, according to Wilkins, Kleiderkasse catalogues were distributed every September-ish of the year before. Therefore, the 1940 ss Kleiderkasse catalogue would have been printed in 39 and of course much too early to include any choice of waffenfarbe colour as per the regulation change. Plus, by the time the 1941 catalogue was due to be printed, the regulation had already or was very soon to be changed yet again. So, even if piped caps were available through the Kleiderkasse for a short period, there would not have been any record of this in any catalogue.

                        Comment

                          #147
                          Originally posted by John Pic View Post
                          . . . crushers were a privately ordered non regulation item and that it was really the wearers choice if he wanted non regulation color piping on his non regulation cap?
                          Wait a minute, wait a minute! Has anybody here ever believed this wasn't the case??? I thought that was common thought. It is for me anyway.

                          Originally posted by Fritz
                          Brian,
                          I just had a quick look at that picture again...Is that guy to the right wearing a palm winter parka???? If so, WOW!
                          Do you have access to more pictures of that scene?
                          Where do you see palm, Fritz? It looks like oak to me, probably 'A'.
                          And no, that's it. Sorry.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

                          Comment

                            #148
                            Originally posted by Bob Hritz View Post
                            I would think that any maker, who liked to see profits, would make any hat a soldier requested.
                            That is my opinion as well.


                            Originally posted by Bob Hritz View Post
                            Believe me, Himmler and company had far more to keep them occupied than going after tailors and hatmakers because they fulfilled a customer's orders.
                            Probably true. Although it is not beyond the realm of possibility. Anyone who doesn't realize that, understands nothing about Nazi Germany or the SS. What my theory states is that THE FEAR of this happening is what kept capmakers from marking their non-regulation caps. FEAR is the engine that drives a police state like nazism. And it keeps all the little people from stepping out of line, by even a fraction. When your neighbor is dragged out of bed in the middle of the night and nobody knows why or where or ever sees him again, you tend to keep your head down, mind your own business, and keep your nose very clean. Nazi Germany was the most efficient, thorough, and brutal regime we've seen yet. And the sheer brutality of it is something I think that is truly lost on the last couple of generations, and is being forgotten more and more as time goes by. There are millions of ghosts roaming the fields of Auschwitz, Dachau, Treblinka, Belsen, Sobibor, Matthausen, etc., etc., etc., who did a lot less to offend the 'authorities' than make non-regulation headgear. A few survived by doing just the opposite!


                            Originally posted by Bob Hritz View Post
                            I have little doubt that hats, for officers, could br purchased from anyone who made hats, in any country where the soldiers were billited.
                            Bob Hritz
                            Again, I agree.

                            Comment

                              #149
                              Nazis most brutal?

                              Don't know about that. Might put Stalin in the 1930s & Cambodia in the 1970s in the brutality race, for example......

                              Comment

                                #150
                                To moderator Bob Coleman

                                Without intending to be impudent, might I ask why you post replies with the firet letter of each word in caps? Does anyone else find this hard to read? Or is there some reason for this that I do not understand?

                                Comment

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