Today’s poll

[NTZ]

Another interesting point on this thread. The two most common piped visors we see are KZ and PZ. These are the two most unlikely. especially PZ IMO. In 1940 there were virtually no SS tanks and an SS PZ division was nonexistent. The majority of SS units were infantry and artillery. There was very little pink waffenfarbe out there. Who was buying these caps? In period pics I have only seen arty. Does anyone have pics of another waffenbarbe in use?

[SJP]

There was plenty of "Esprit de Corps" w/the Panzer Divsions as evident with period photo's showing pink piped tabs & wraps and special clothing issued to them.The difficulty is discerning pink from white in photo's plus a fair amount were converted Heer Visor's.IMO thats why originals can be encountered abeit rarely.The copies have been around for so long & have poisoned the collective thought they will always be "enjoy your cap!"
Mark Yeager's work is one source replete w/ period photo's of colored piped visors.
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Cheers Steve

[Bobwirtz]

Two things:

One: I thought that the SS Headgear book that Mike Beaver was working on before his untimely passing was the one that Bill Shea and Kelly Hicks finished and put out. That is a HELMET book and not all SS Headgear from what I've seen. I couldn't see Mike putting an entire book on SS Helmets, especially since Kelly Hicks had done two softcovers and finally a great hardbound. I would think that Kelly's book would have been the "one all" on this subject. Mike might have put some helmets into his SS Headgear book, but probably would have referred to Kelly's book.

Two: The manufacturers of reproductions have also poisoned the community with these various colored piped caps, shoulder straps embroidered with various color LAH monograms, M44 camo shoulder straps, etc. Plus there are a lot of books that come out, especially those thin paperbacks, with pictures of Waffen-SS panzer men wearing pink piped service caps, not to mention a lot of other fantasy stuff. Artists and model makers also use pink piped headgear. You can go to the bigger shows and see some dealers with a rack or two with these various colored piped caps... some of which try to pawn them off as originals. I ran into a reenactor one time who was supposed to be a Feldgendarmerie and he was wearing shoulder straps with an orange embroidered LAH monogram and an orange piped crusher cap and he was a lowly enlisted man. This kind of stuff is done all the time at living history events and everybody sees them and the reenactors-living historians teach this stuff to the public. Then this kind of thing overlaps into the 'real world of collecting'. Youngsters coming into our community think that this is the way it really is - next thing you know some kid has one cap with each color and he's proud because he has an entire set and thinks they're authentic.

Bob

[NTZ]

I have a feeling our 3,000+ votes are just screwing with us. No one in their right mind can really think that. In my 18yrs of collecting visors (granted only the last 4 or 5 revolved around SS) I have only seen one, maybe two I thought to be original. That is literally out of 100’s I have looked at. This means existing visors guys not total ever made.

[Kreager]

I have a feeling our 3,000+ votes are just screwing with us. No one in their right mind can really think that. In my 18yrs of collecting visors (granted only the last 4 or 5 revolved around SS) I have only seen one, maybe two I thought to be original. That is literally out of 100’s I have looked at. This means existing visors guys not total ever made.

There is always a few in a bunch who have to screw around. These are the same people who when asked to fill out a government census, check off the wrong block, just to throw off everything.

[Leroy]

I personally believe that there are MANY more original color-piped caps around than most think. Look at 15 random photos of groups of NCO's and officers, even (perhaps especially) very late in the war, and you will see, in 10 of those photos, color-piped visors worn. Perhaps many were converted Army visors (now rejected as "Frankensteins" or re-makes), but who cares? They are out there. I am a big believer in looking at real photos to see how things really were. It is nonsense to believe (again, IMHO) that some regulation really stopped the practice of frontline units.

[NTZ]

I personally believe that there are MANY more original color-piped caps around than most think. Look at 15 random photos of groups of NCO's and officers, even (perhaps especially) very late in the war, and you will see, in 10 of those photos, color-piped visors worn. Perhaps many were converted Army visors (now rejected as "Frankensteins" or re-makes), but who cares? They are out there. I am a big believer in looking at real photos to see how things really were. It is nonsense to believe (again, IMHO) that some regulation really stopped the practice of frontline units.

I too look through photos. Ever since I picked up this interest in color piped some year’s back I make a point to look. If you are looking for them you will find them. Take a random look at lets say 1,000 different officer (not the same one in 10 pics) and how many will you find? A small handful.

[besslein]

I personally believe that there are MANY more original color-piped caps around than most think. Look at 15 random photos of groups of NCO's and officers, even (perhaps especially) very late in the war, and you will see, in 10 of those photos, color-piped visors worn. Perhaps many were converted Army visors (now rejected as "Frankensteins" or re-makes), but who cares? They are out there. I am a big believer in looking at real photos to see how things really were. It is nonsense to believe (again, IMHO) that some regulation really stopped the practice of frontline units.

I agree,I know a veteran and he told my that he ordered a color piped cap in 1943 in Warsaw,well privat buy it was but always something
I know someone can think how he can remember this so good,but it was a Kavalerii unit and all Nco"s have done this in hes "Ersatz abteilung" ,I have seen photos from him,and hes cap was for sure not white piped.

[NTZ]

You guys are also forgetting the single most important point of my question. How many survived? Come on, we all know what percentage of SS related cloth survived the war. We are not debating how many were made and used. It is how many are here today. Also, Infantry remained thought the war the largest segment of the SS. Remember that.

[Leroy]

To NTZ -
I believe you are very knowledgeable in cap construction and I greatly respect your opinions...............but, in this area, I believe you are incorrect. We have 1000's of B&W photos, but very few color. I have just seen too many where the shadings and tone, when compared to identifiably white items in the photo, just cannot be white. Yellow, especially, is a hard call. The most common piping colors were, I BELIEVE, red, pink and yellow, in that order. I have spoken to a longtime hat collector and friend (a very private person who NEVER posts, but who has hundreds of caps of every branch and organization, and who is now in his late 70's), and he has advised me that it is his belief that MOST officers and NCO's in units that utilized colored shoulder board pipings had visors to match.

[Leroy]

NTZ,
You posted again (after my first post) with a good point: how many survived?
That is something we will never know and you are exactly right that many SS items were simply trashed after the war. I simply believe that many more were worn during the war than we acknowledge and, also, that many "converted" caps (absolutely wartime conversions) have been rejected as fake.

[NTZ]

To NTZ -
I believe you are very knowledgeable in cap construction and I greatly respect your opinions...............but, in this area, I believe you are incorrect. We have 1000's of B&W photos, but very few color. I have just seen too many where the shadings and tone, when compared to identifiably white items in the photo, just cannot be white. Yellow, especially, is a hard call. The most common piping colors were, I BELIEVE, red, pink and yellow, in that order. I have spoken to a longtime hat collector and friend (a very private person who NEVER posts, but who has hundreds of caps of every branch and organization, and who is now in his late 70's), and he has advised me that it is his belief that MOST officers and NCO's in units that utilized colored shoulder board pipings had visors to match.

I can only say that authentic examples that find there way onto the market certainly do not bear this. I would be interested in how many SS officers served in the W-SS through out the war. From that we can determine how many potential color pipes there could have been taking out infantry and generals ranks. With all due respect to your friend period photos certainly DO NOT support his theory that “most” officers and nco’s wore color piped visors. I also talk to many that do not post on the forum. Some are long time SS collectors and some or amateur historians but none have even remotely made the bold claim that “most” officers and nco wore them. Think about that claim for a minute and tell me what he possibly could have based that on. Sorry to say but these were being faked as early as people collected. I truly believe that most who want to make these types of claims are doing it to justify the authenticity of items in their collections. This type of claim is basically saying that after the wear out period of Nov. 1940 they just kept buying them, business as usual. This claim can be proven wrong in a second. Most existing examples are kleiderkasse purchased and not private purchase. I am pretty certain that the SS would not sanction the purchase of items against regulations.

[Leroy]

One last thought. Again, NTZ, the point of your inquiry (which I freely admit I missed) was how many now exist. I would think that number is in absolute direct proportion to the actual number of SS units utilizing colored pipings to the actual number of SS units which were solely infantry. Somebody (not me!) can do that math.

[Leroy]

Sorry, again, NTZ. We are posting while the other is writing, which is confusing. My friend's view is that most officers and NCO's IN UNITS WHICH HAD COLORED SHOULDER BOARD PIPING had matching visors. He (and I) believe that the regulation was ignored by the soldiers. Maybe some hatmakers were scared to make a colored visor from the ground up after the regulation, but I don't believe for a second that a local tailor (or mother, or girlfriend) would hesitate to replace the band on an Army cap.
SS caps are rare both because of the relatively small number of SS troops and because they were bad news to have around after the war. Good white piped ones are relatively difficult to find (compared to Army) today. The colored ones are even harder, but not impossibly so.

[NTZ]

Sorry, again, NTZ. We are posting while the other is writing, which is confusing. My friend's view is that most officers and NCO's IN UNITS WHICH HAD COLORED SHOULDER BOARD PIPING had matching visors. He (and I) believe that the regulation was ignored by the soldiers. Maybe some hatmakers were scared to make a colored visor from the ground up after the regulation, but I don't believe for a second that a local tailor (or mother, or girlfriend) would hesitate to replace the band on an Army cap.
SS caps are rare both because of the relatively small number of SS troops and because they were bad news to have around after the war. Good white piped ones are relatively difficult to find (compared to Army) today. The colored ones are even harder, but not impossibly so.

I agree that Army ones re-banded are a strong possibility but I don’t think it happen as much as you think. Em/NCO did not have the leeway to break regulations so I don’t think that would be too common. I think known existing examples and again period photos substantiate that. I also stand firm on my assertion that the use of color pipes is extremely over exaggerated by collectors to some how justify what they have in there collection. I think some of these people think if they wish hard enough it will come true. The only evidence we have to the extent of use is period photos. Period photos certainly show very limited use. Speculation as to the production of these visors post 1940 is just that, pure speculation. As I always say, show me the proof. Show me an color piped visor of certain authenticity with late war traits. Show me more than just a few photos out of thousands.

Think about this for logical reasoning. The regs only had use of 8 months. Are you telling me that soldier worrying about their lives gave two sh$ts about if there visor was piped? Over something that existed for a very small period of time. Do you really think on the meager about of money they were paid they would spend it all just to buy a color piped visor though a private tailor when they could get a standard piped one at a substantial discount through the Kleiderkasse? If you look through Kleiderkasse catalogs even those visors cost more than a month’s pay. A private purchase would be even more. Common sense goes a long way in this debate. I hear too many people say, “well I think”. Please tell me was hard evidence exists to substantiate the claim that this was a common practice to purchase them after 1940? NONE!!!! It all goes back to a wish or a dream. Hey I bought 10 of them over the last 30yrs, they are more common than we think. The problem is they are all probably fake. Go find the “show me your color pipe” thread. How many real ones did we see? I think one.