Today’s poll

[NTZ]

I was just thinking today about how many color piped officers visors we see on the forum, at shows, dealer sites, collections, etc. Now lets look at a few things and then a poll question. Take the following into consideration.

-The wear period for color pipes was 8 months
-The size of the W-SS in 1940 was very small, according to one estimate I seen only about 125,000 in total
-How many non-infantry officers there were that would even need a color piped visor
-How many actually bought color piped visors
-How many bought color pipes after the wear out period
-The survival rate of SS items after the war

Now ask yourself a realistic question. How many truly authentic color piped officers SS visors exist today?

[R.Beck]

Personally, the thought of owning a "Real One" is intriguing. However, I for one wouldn't want to go out on a limb and spend thousands in hopes that I bought the "real thing". Think about it.......whenever someone post even a W-SS there is quite often a mad rush to judgment. Far be it for me to want a visor in my collection that I can't be certain is 100% correct. Just my humble opinion


Gebirgsjäger

[NTZ]

The guys that voted 3,000+ are blowing my mind on common sense. There were not even 3,000 non-infantry officers in the SS during this period. So what you are saying is everyone bought more than one and every single one survived. What dreamers.

[NTZ]

For those voting may I make a suggestion before you vote? Do 10 minutes of research on the size and composition of the SS in 1940/41. The SS was extremely small at this time, seen extremely limited action and the overwhelming majority of the SS was infantry. Thus no need for any color piping. Come on, if you voted for 3,000+ explain yourself. You can’t be serious.

[Josef Hahne]

OK, I cast my vote, 100-500. IMO, colored Officers visors are a rare breed. Even more so are colored NCO visors.

For nostalgia purposes, I pulled out my copy of Kit Wilsons "SS Headgear" book. In it, he has two colored examples. One a Rose for Panzer & the other a Kupferbraun for KZ. In the rear of the book it lists colored Officer visors as very rare and values them at $2,700. (1989-90)!!!

I used to be somewhat friendly with "Kits" son. I know most of his fathers collection was sold off after his death. Does anyone know where the bulk of his collection now resides and was his collection found to be pre 1945??

Sorry to piggy back this thread.

Sepp

[NTZ]

OK, I cast my vote, 100-500.
Sepp

So did I (although I lean toward the lower end of it), as I considered the possibility of them being produced after 1940 at special request. Although there is no evidence of this I still took it into consideration. Rare I think is not a strong enough word for these, especially officers. I truly think that some collectors are delusional about the facts. They want so bad that color piped they picked up from the local show to be real. The fact is it is probably not. They want to think that what they have is real so bad they convinced themselves that they are abundant. Look at period photos people. They existed but were very rarely seen. Now how many survived? Common sense goes a long way in this hobby but I think some collectors’ dreams are clouding theirs.

[stonemint]

For nostalgia purposes, I pulled out my copy of Kit Wilsons "SS Headgear" book. In it, he has two colored examples. One a Rose for Panzer & the other a Kupferbraun for KZ. In the rear of the book it lists colored Officer visors as very rare and values them at $2,700. (1989-90)!!!

I used to be somewhat friendly with "Kits" son. I know most of his fathers collection was sold off after his death. Does anyone know where the bulk of his collection now resides and was his collection found to be pre 1945??

Sorry to piggy back this thread.

Sepp[/quote]

Sepp, you are actually helping to make NTZ's point! I haven't had Wilson's book in at least 15 years, but pix of the 2 Waffen-SS visors you mentioned have been re-printed here on the forum. I believe one was Kupferbraun for KZ, the other Panzer. In any event, BOTH hats were
fakes--one was an Erel Kleiderkasse (for Heer), and the other a fake Adalbert Breiter. So even the late Mr. Wilson was fooled back in the 80's by the elusive SS color-piped visor--thus one again showing the abject rarity of these things.

(And somewhere there is the "proud" owner of these Frankys repeating over and over, "they must be real....they're in the book!")

[Kreager]

Come on, if you voted for 3,000+ explain yourself. You can’t be serious.

We know that the 3,000 believers are just messing around. They can't be serious

If they are serious, they are probably looking at their collection of reproductions that they think are authentic !!!

[Josef Hahne]

Stonemint,
WOW, thanks for the update!! I've often looked at Wilson's book and wondered if half the stuff in there was original!! Almost too much rare and very rare headgear in one place, even for the mid to late 1980's!! I always thought his "partnership" with Reddick (a huge reproduction business) was a little strange. Maybe not so strange after all???

Sepp

[SJP]

[quote=stonemint;2298974]

I used to be somewhat friendly with "Kits" son. I know most of his fathers collection was sold off after his death. Does anyone know where the bulk of his collection now resides and was his collection found to be pre 1945??

He was one of the first to be called out publicly for his fraud attempts.
I had one of his pieces sent to me 10yrs ago,the insignia was held in place w/elmers glue.
His book was followed by an add In DG that exposed him and
is unique in that it's shows original material w/his hump up's.
A pleasant "un-intended" consequence.
__________________________________________________ ___________
Cheers Steve

[N.C. Wyeth]

To all;

If the NCO version is the least common of the two, you may want to help Ben and I in a search for the KZ NCO visor in the thread I just brought back to the top over at the "BARTO SS Forum" . . .

Brad

[Bobwirtz]

Kit Wilson's book: This was the first book published which showed Dave Delich's camouflaged field cap with camouflaged insignia IN COLOR. Although a poor printing process, this one cap is 100% original. The rest were a grab back of everything from original to total reproduction and everything in between.

Officer's were provided with a clothing allowance. They took this money and depending upon their druthers, went out to tailors, kleidekasses, etc. and had their uniforms made. This is one reason you see the great majority of these piped caps (originals) are officers. Officers also had raincoats and leather overcoats, something not seen being worn by the rank and file... were not an issued item. Service or Visor Caps were the same way. Enlisted service caps were for the very most part, if not totally, manufactured by SS contractors and with white (only) piping. These enlisted caps were NOT made with the various branch color piping. If they had been, I think you would be seeing many more original enlisted service caps with this characteristic. Also, the entire SS clothing industry was in it's infancy and having these special branch piped caps made for the then small numbers of specialized troops would have made the entire system inflexible. Just as the unit ciphers (LAH, D, G, DF) were modified and enbroidered on slip on tabs instead of directly onto the shoulder straps to make the system flexible, so was this done. So if a professional NCO wanted a branch color piped service cap during the April-November 1940 period, he would have to private purchase one and pay for it out of his own money, thus the rarity even greater than officer. I cannot point my finger to a single book and recite the page number... it is something I've found it bits and pieces over the years and in various books. I'm sure if Mike Beaver was still with us and finished his book on SS Headgear, it would have been in there. In fact, he might have put this issue, as well as all issues concerning these branch colored piped caps to bed once and for all.

Bob

[NTZ]

It looks like we have 4th dreamer. These guys vote but can’t comment why. Hmm, that is odd.

[Josef Hahne]

Sorry for yet another piggy back. We will soon have a headgear book that was just recently completed. The late Michael Beaver asked a well known and respected collector to finish it. I would imagine it will be as comprehensive as Beaver would have wanted it.

Sepp

[Mike Davis]

I have never seen in person an SS officer's visored hat piped in any other colour than white that I believed to be original. Of course I know from the ample period photographic evidence that they existed but I suspect most are Heer caps. For me, it is white or nothing. Interesting topic as always...