Today’s poll

[NTZ]

Oh, one more comment since some of you feel these were much more common than we think. Look at all the color pipes in all the reference books out there. Just about every one has been proven fake over the years. Show me some real ones. We have thousands of members here. Surely if they were worn by “most” of the officer we should see more than one or two real ones over the last 4 or 5 years. To all the pie in the sky dreamers who voted 3K+ show me a real one. Yours or someone else’s. I can show you a 100 real white pipes but off the top of my head I can’t think of one real color pipe I can show you. Lets see proof guys.

[SJP]

I think I'll pass on Kool Aid
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Cheers Steve

[NTZ]

I think I'll pass on Kool Aid
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Cheers Steve

You got that right!

[Leroy]

NTZ,
I agree with much that you say; however, I still believe that branch piping was a source of unit pride and so many officers (who COULD afford it) and NCO's (not regular EM's), many of whom really were professional soldiers and could have easily been already in service in 1940, did use branch-piped caps. I have spoken to Waffen-SS officer vets years ago and, while I never asked about their caps (didn't know at the time what the future would bring!), certainly got the impression that regular Army officers acted "superior" to them, which was insulting and embarassing. I can see (and I'm not a psychologist) that you would want your cap to have branch-colored piping if the Army counterpart you dealt with was allowed to have it on his.
As I mentioned earlier, it seems to me (and others can certainly form their own opinions) that later war photos, especially, show combat officers wearing with frequency what appear to be color-piped caps. IMHO, too much faith is put into the idea that SS troops, just because they were SS, adhered to a clothing regulation which was promulgated by bureaucrats in a non-combat area environment. Berlin was a million miles away to these people.
In any case, these caps are RARE and, in response to the original premise to this poll, I believe that some certainly still exist but, as with all SS headgear, nothing like we encounter with other branches of service. Think about this - there were certainly lots of SS-decaled helmets, but where are they now? There's no dispute they were commonly worn by SS troops and one would think
they would be more prevalent than, say, Navy helmets, but they are not........

[NTZ]

Leroy I agree with you 100% on the fact that they were a source of pride and that they were an n item of pride. I also agree that regs were broke and they “probably” were made after 1940. The problem is that even with all that said they seen limited use compared to white pipe and the existence of real examples to date is beyond scarce. Think if this for an analogy. How many pre war pics do you see of SS officers and NCO’s in white summer dress? A lot!. Now these are visors that would have site home on a self during the war. How many real white tops Alg SS visors do you see? I have yet to see a single one.

[Leroy]

Again, can someone please tell us what the ratio was between SS infantry and SS units with colored piping? And then, can someone tell us the ratio of SS panzer officers and NCO's (just to pick one branch) to Infantry officers and NCO's? Do you agree, NTZ, that the colors you HAVE seen are red, pink and yellow, in that order of decreasing numbers? (Forget the KZ, etc., which certainly exist but which are hyper-rare.)
I don't collect SS caps and don't have anything in my personal collection that I have to validate by pretending a state of affairs that didn't exist, but since the controversy over colored-piped SS caps arose years ago I have looked very closely at every wartime photo of SS combat units showing visors in wear, and I still maintain that they contain the evidence needed to support what I have said here. Maybe I'm wrong, but I invite other members to go back and look very closely at such photos and tell us what you see.

[Leroy]

And NTZ, I'm AGREEING with you that they are rare today!

[NTZ]

Again, can someone please tell us what the ratio was between SS infantry and SS units with colored piping? And then, can someone tell us the ratio of SS panzer officers and NCO's (just to pick one branch) to Infantry officers and NCO's? .

I would like to see this too. I did some quick research and asked a couple of SS collectors some questions when I started this thread. It looks like in 1940 the overwhelming majority of W-SS troops were infantry. They had your support groups like artillery and such. Then throughout the war they built up things like pz divisions and other units like the army. But from what I found even in 1943 they were still pretty much infantry based. Lets here the history guys add to this

Here is a link of basic numbers
http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=2173

[SJP]

NTZ,
Think about this - there were certainly lots of SS-decaled helmets, but where are they now?

There on estand One of the many wonders of the SS.Why did so so many SS helmets of all description survive yet one is hard pressed to find an original Camouflage field cap
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Cheers Steve

[Bobwirtz]

1. To begin with the white piping originates from the Allgemeine-SS of white piping;
2. The early Waffen-SS units were primarily infantry. The LAH during the Polish and French Campaigns was only an infantry regiment and was upgraded to a Brigade in December 1940, although never officially designated as such. SS-VT Division, as Das Reich started out, was again primarily an infantry division with three regiments: Deutschland, Germania and Der Fuhrer. Totenkopf was still working it's way to divisional strength during the French Campaign. The Waffen-SS never did adopt the green color the Army accepted for Panzergrenadier... they maintained white. These were the only three units (less the 4. SS-Polizei-Division, which was still in it's infancy in 1940) of the Waffen-SS in existence during the period April to November 1940 when the regulations allowing these troops to wear branch colors on their caps. NTZ, the wear out period began in November 1940 so they could have actually worn these caps much longer, but not forever. So in these 3 units, there were very few troops with specialties, like artillery, panzer, panzerjager, signals, engineers, recce, medical, etc. Even in a full-blown SS panzer division with 18,000 men, there is one panzer regiment and TWO SS-Panzergrenadier-Regiments, so they are still going to be 'infantry heavy'.
3. Yes, the soldiers did ignore regulations out in the field while wallowing in the mud, blood and beer! BUT, as partially stated, the Kleidekassen, as well as tailors DID obey the regulations because there was no sense in continuing to manufacture or hand-craft something which was now illegal to buy and wear. It was a business for these people. I'd bet when that order came out to cease wearing these caps, many tailors who had caps already made for sale and display, took them down and converted them to Army.
4. Waffen-SS NCOs along with the Other Ranks, were ISSUED their clothing to include white piped service caps. If during the 8 months that branch colors were authorized, they wanted one, they would have to go to a tailor or kleidekasse and buy one out of pocket. The officers were given a clothing allowance and could pretty much buy what they wanted. You'll never (careful of that word) find pictures of NCOs and Other Ranks wearing leather overcoats and raincoats, and I'm not talking about the motorcycle coats. These were private purchased by officers, who were given the money to buy and maintain their uniforms.
5. Leroy: "Again, can someone please tell us what the ratio was between SS infantry and SS units with colored piping?" Just about every division had the full range of branch colors except Gebirgs and Cavalry. Every division had red for artillery and flak, yellow for signals, dark-blue for medical, the Gebirgs and Cavalry having the color for Veterinarians, black for pioneers, pink for panzer and/or panzerjager, blue-gray for Wirtschaften, light-blue for transport. For all of those without a specialty, they wore white and were essentially panzergrenadier. If you look at each division's Order of Battle, you will see all of these support elements, the ones that wore the branch colors.
6. I believe that very few men in the divisions after the Totenkopf would have gone out and bought branch color service caps because by the time these were being put together the 1940 order had long since been rescinded.
7. Upon the rescinding of the order in November 1940, I would imagine that those who had these caps bought a new white-piped cap and then put this one in their closets. If they lived anywhere near where the Soviets came through, the people in that house would have discarded, burned, buried, etc. these uniforms because an SS uniform in a house was a death sentence to everybody in it. So although many were probably set aside and initially saved, many probably met their fate something like this.
8. I think that authentic branch colored service caps today are very rare and finding a real one is difficult at best.

Bob

[Dr. Strangelove]

Branch Piped

Less than Fifty and that is probably world-wide. These Guys wore this stuff out in most cases or it was destroyed. Approach all branch piped SS Visors with the same caution with which you would approach an Iraqi minefield. If Reifkogel had survived the War his would never have lasted, just look at what is left of it !

[Leroy]

This is very interesting. I have never heard that the white piping originated from the "black ss", but instead thought the Waffen-SS was following the Army waffenfarbe chart and just happened to start with "infantry white" because infantry was all they had to begin with.
I think we all can see, as NTZ indicated all along, that the ratio of "colored piping" units (even within divisional strength support units) to "white piping" units was remarkably small. If officers and NCO's wore colored piped caps to match their unit's shoulder board waffenfarbe, the number of such caps in comparison to white-piped caps would have been correspondingly small (1 to 100, perhaps even lower). If you factor in compliance by, say, 2 in 5 of all officers and NCO's with the regulation change, the number becomes even smaller. So....you can STILL have most of the officers and NCO's in "colored piping" units actually wearing that colored piping on their caps (which is what I truly believe happened) and end up with exactly the same ratio of colored- piped caps to white-piped caps that we see today. Very small, indeed. No one in their right minds would dispute that these caps are rare. But the information I'm seeing here is fully supportive of the majority of officer and NCO's in "color-piped" units actually wearing that color piping on their caps. Otherwise, we would NOT
see the photographs that are out there for us to see. Photos of artillery and panzer officers and NCO's, taken late in the war or even at the time of capture and surrender, show these caps being worn. In relation to the TOTAL number of Waffen-SS personnel, the number is very small, BUT THEY ARE THERE.
So...two things can be (and I believe ARE) true at the same time: Officers and NCO's of units with colored piping wore that piping on their caps with great frequency...AND the numbers of such personnel (and the corresponding number of caps surviving today) is very, very small.

There is no contradiction here.

[NTZ]

I still ask of the delusional people who keep voting 3,000+ SHOW ME A FRIKIN REAL ONE!!!!!!! WHERE ARE YOUR 3,000+ CAPS??????? Stay off the crack folks.

[besslein]

I still ask of the delusional people who keep voting 3,000+ SHOW ME A FRIKIN REAL ONE!!!!!!! WHERE ARE YOUR 3,000+ CAPS??????? Stay off the crack folks.

I think Wade Krawczyk own all color piped SS Visor caps,how we can see in hes book He own many

[NTZ]

I think Wade Krawczyk own all color piped SS Visor caps,how we can see in hes book He own many