Today’s poll

[Leroy]

Now NTZ and I agree! If you are lucky, you will be able to see at shows or on the internet a real one of these caps (including Army-converted) a few times during your collecting life. The number for sale today is completely out of proportion to those which actually existed. They were worn with frequency by those who could wear them, but those who COULD wear them were few in number to begin with.

Just for the fun of it, last night I went through, page by page, the SS Ritterkreuztrager book. If you want to see these caps, they are certainly there, being worn in 1941, 42, 43, 44 and 45 as their owners won the RK. It is a VERY interesting study. Take some time to do it.

The Waffen-SS occupies such a large segment of our collecting interest that we tend to exaggerate in our minds, or at least to forget, the actual number of its personnel. Probably what we need to remember is that SS troops were thrown into (or already be in) the hottest areas, so we see them in Normandy, Arnhem, the Bulge, etc.

The great thing about this hobby is that anyone has a chance of "winning the lottery". The old man down the street might just have one of these caps in the attic. If he does, you could both be VERY happy. (Maybe he's got an RK with Oakleaves, too!)

[sturmbannfuhrer]

If Reifkogel had survived the War his would never have lasted, just look at what is left of it !

Good Point, what about the amount of stuff confiscated by the Army of the USA. The GI was the mainstay of the "war booty" and did help himself to a lot of stuff that was subsequently shipped back stateside.

A lot of GI's traded stuff with the soviets before the reds stopped the fratinisation. Maybe not 3000+ but also remember a lot of Jerries still did not believe they were going to loose the war until they actually did. Fanatics to the end...

[NTZ]

This is just a guess based on what I have seen over the years but if we are talking strictly officers I would venture to say that there is not even 3,000 in total still in existence. This is including white piped.

[Leroy]

Officer and NCO together, maybe around 300 in color still left, as a VERY rough guess. The problem is that there are SO many collections we know nothing about, not to mention items still in storage or boxed away with vets or museums. The number (of all caps, too) could be very much higher.

A US Army officer told me that when he worked at Ft. Lee (home of the Quartermaster Museum) in the early '70's, there were still in storage well over 100 footlockers sent home from Europe by staff officers and generals and donated which had never been really opened or catalogued.

[Bobwirtz]

I agree!

Bob

[Dr. Strangelove]

Unopened Footlockers !

Did somebody say 70 unopened Footlockers? WOW!! NTZ, I cannot carry all that swag alone. Let's hit the hardware store get some bolt cutters and crack that joint ! My version of "Night at the Museum". SS Piped Visors in all colors like skittles!

[Leroy]

True story, boys.

You might have a hard time since it IS a military base and I think they have REAL GUNS there. Remember to bring flashlights and not blacklights, as the stuff probably wouldn't glow bright enough for you to see by.

[Z19]

Piped Visors?

"-The survival rate of SS items after the war"

Hey Nick, I'm not going to vote because I don't have a clue, but I do know this point you made above shouldn't have any affect since A-SS NCO caps seem to be as common as a black wound badge on the market today!! Alex

[NTZ]

"-The survival rate of SS items after the war"

Hey Nick, I'm not going to vote because I don't have a clue, but I do know this point you made above shouldn't have any affect since A-SS NCO caps seem to be as common as a black wound badge on the market today!! Alex

Got to a big show like the SOS or MAX. You can outfit a division with color pipes.

[John Pic]

I never see any color piped caps at these shows except on the table of "Traders of the lost Surplus". That said I was weighing this statement by NTZ "has been proven fake " From what I know the "Rounder" KC was "proven" fake through scientific analysis. But from what I see on forums not much else is "proven" so much as it is speculated or opinionated on. Sure the known fakes are "proven" but the rest is just the sharing of ideas.I asked why an APB badge I have was considered a fake and who made them and when..the answer I got was "do a search of the forum". Needless to say I had already done that and my search over and over again revealed the same info.... no one knew because "not much is known about these", but it just is because collectors formed a consensus that it was... period, no further discussion needed. Not proof just consensus.You can only base so much on consensus 25 years ago RS GABs were "known fakes" they are today "100% textbook original". I remember a friend in 1979 giving me an RS badge for my tunic display because it was at the time "a proven fake".Have fun looking for answers but you will never answer everything until you invent a Time Machine.

[NTZ]

Have fun looking for answers but you will never answer everything until you invent a Time Machine.

This is true.

Now as for color pipes at the big shows I can't say what was at the MAX this year as I was not there. The SOS was a different story. I was there and they were plentiful. There was one table that was on one of the walls that has at least 6. They were indeed being sold as originals. They were also scattered about one here, one there. I am not sure if the Dr. was there but that would be a handful more.

[NTZ]

John just to comment on “opinions” in the hobby, yes there is no way in hell to ever be 100% on anything and I mean anything. We were not there. But what we can do is compare what we know about right as rain one lookers or items with extremely reliable provenance and apply that to high-end items that are commonly faked. When something does not add up or make sense it is safe to say you might not want to plunk down $20K for it. That is the best we can do. Case and point. The visor Kevin posted. Do any of us know it was good or bad? Hell no. But Kevin did find something on it that none of us had ever seen on a period visor before. That same thing he found has also been found on other visors that that has signs of tampering. Would you spend $10K or so on it? I would not. I feel like your post was a personal jab at me, if not I apologize in advance for my rant. None of us are here to be malicious. We are all here for the same thing. The love of the hobby and collectively trying to determine right from wrong.

[John Pic]

A poke in the ribs for a thought but I like your posts NTZ, guys like you do the hard work others with lifelong experience should have a long time ago. My posts, one should remember are more my thoughts put into type. I certainly wouldnt pay $10,000 for that cap,and would take your analysis of it seriously.You my friend can rest knowing Id never take a sharp jab at you without a PM first. Youre a very fair player and thats important in this field.

I was thinking about the other gentlemans comment regarding having caps retailored for taste during the war and wondering how many if this is the case, might've been passed on or destroyed post war as "worthless crap". I see some wartime pictures that sure make me think ...is that a heer cap I see with SS insignias applied? Because the bands look a lighter shade than others in the photos.If they wore dark green collars on thier tunics.. also a later feature...then why not matching caps? Would they even care about such a thing during the war? Especially with old style caps piped in color that show up in photos.

When my belly loosens after todays meal I am going to do some research on SS units in 1940 assigned other duties than "Infantry" and try to find some corresponding pictures.

[NTZ]

You are right about alterations. I have seen a few that I was 99% certain were period done. One being an upgraded sweatband and the rest visors changed out to give the look of a crusher. I can take a jab or two. It puts me back on track.

[BenVK]

Off the top of my head, of all the piped caps I've seen, I would consider that about 10 are real or have a very good chance of being real.
4 Pz, 1 Kz, 1 Art, 1 Signals, 2 Gj, 1 Orange (Recruiting?). 5 of those are Officers caps and 8 have a makers mark.

From period photos I've seen, the majority have been NCO's with Pz and Artillery being the most common colour I would say but also quite a few Pioneers. (black is obviously the easiest to spot). Most were regular visors but many were leather or paper peaked and a few were cloth peaked caps.

Dates range from 1940 right through to piped caps being worn in POW camps in late 45.

If I had to make a guess, I'd say that certainly less than a hundred piped caps survive to this day.