Sweatband "reed" material in SS visor

[Dave Kane]

I asked you a question about my cap you havent answered it. If you know about these fakes so much you can in a detailed response tell me how this one is without seeing further pictures.
So far all I have is that the underside of the visor wear reminds you of "Wolfram" caps.Ok, we see those here, none are in any way like mine.

Someone else said the material used to anchor the liner in was not proper material, we have debunked that frivolous accusation by showing the material used in two original visors is exactly the same.

No extra stitch holes anywhere,original insignias,original wool, original side buttons,non glowing white threads under the liner,even although light wear all around.Tight velvet band no dyed Green band (Ive also owned one of those attempts).

Ive just compaired it with another contract cap and it is exactly the same construction and also has Zimmerman insignias.
There Ive stuck to the cap.

Good man! I am glad you are happy with it

[John Pic]

Thank you,Im glad you approve of my hapiness.But you still have not shown any reasons for your concerns about my cap and now I am curious as to what knowledge you have.As I am sure many other owners of these contract type are. Educate us.

[Dave Kane]

Thank you,Im glad you approve of my hapiness.But you still have not shown any reasons for your concerns about my cap and now I am curious as to what knowledge you have.As I am sure many other owners of these contract type are. Educate us.

"Enough stop using my cap find another real SS visor to make compairson, I did and guess what they all are done the same with the same materials."


Can't have it both ways...we either discuss and COMPARE your cap or we don't. Afterall, it was your cap that was presented for discussion!<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[John Pic]

Thats what I just asked you to do list all the things about MY cap that are wrong. You have enough pictures here to use for compairing , after all they were sufficient enough for you to make your initial judgement. Have at it. I made photo compairings of the attachment material its your move and keep it within this thread.

Its easy to tear apart a picture even when nothing is wrong you can convince novices and those lacking in knowledge that there is.


Ahhhhhm a waitin!

[SgtB]

OK, John, at the risk of tossing another log on the flames when they are starting to die down again, I'll list my concerns. I planned to do it earlier anyway but things went to "the left" too fast.

Many of these are small, seemingly insignificant points, but taken all together, they make quite a pile. Any one or two on a cap are not cause for alarm, so don't expect me to defend them all individually. But all of them together are more than enough reason to run away fast.

1) The badges look totally right but they could have been added
or exchanged at any time, and are rarely a genuine gauge of a cap's authenticity. But I've never seen or had an untouched cap with both badges by the same maker. Maybe some of you have, but for me that is a concern.

2) I don't like seeing fuzzy knap on the piping of a cap that has a lot of wear in other areas. Look at all of your worn caps. Very, very few have long strands of fuzz hanging off of them.

3) As I said before, most repro SS officer's visors that I've seen have the x-weave velvet. I have a cap here that also has it, and several others were posted that have it, so it is not definite. But since so many baddies have it, it is an immediate red flag for me.

4) The chincords are the wrong length. And they are installed off center. On one end, the small knot is even with the end of the visor. On the other, the button is. This good-looking (but too short) strap MAY HAVE replaced a post-war one. I don't even like the buttons. The color of them reminds me of the buttons on W.German caps.

5) I don't like the visor, and to me the wear looks phoney. In the picture you posted with the little yellow tweezers, I see horizontal scratches that look suspicious. I know, I know there are original smooth-backed visors. In fact I've been defending them for decades against folks who don't like them. But I much prefer them on civil or para-military caps. On military and especially RARE caps they are an immediate red flag. And the rarer the cap, the higher the flag waves.

6) I don't like the type of sweatband, and I agree with Dave that the wear looks artificial and inconsistent. I'm sure there are other methods than sandpaper to age leather. And the fastener at the rear appears missing. What type was it and was it PERHAPS removed because it was wrong for some reason?

7) I don't like the type of zig-zag stitching on it either, or the thread used. The V's are much wider and the thread is much thinner like on Jankes than on, say, Erels. And why are the threads at the front completely worn away, when the threads(which would have been right next to them) holding the beading on appear quite pristine?

8) And for me, the initial tabs always raise a need for tighter scrutiny. I knew a guy who had these on nearly every cap he sold. He must've had a box of them as they are not that common. In fact, I've encountered them in maybe five caps out of every hundred.

9) I don't like that beading. The hell with the rest of you! It just looks wrong. And why does it appear brand-spanking-new when there is a couple of years of simulated wear to the rest of the cap. It sticks out, and is the first (and last) point of contact with a head as it is being taken on and off. It should be heavily worn,dry-rotted, and drenched with sweat. And so should the stitching. And where the hell is the reed inside the "reed" material?

10) When a sweatshield is entirely missing, it is a huge red flag. It HAS TO BE in this day and age when so many high-end fakes have been manufactured with post-war shields in them. I have had dozens of visors, with a LOT more field wear to them that had at least a scrap of celluloid left in them, and are often totally complete. Granted some original owners removed them themselves for a softer fit, and I'm sure a cracked shield could've been irritating, if not actually painful, to a bald-headed man like, say, Otto Kumm. But somebody said that some SS shields were very brittle and crumbled away quickly. Well that doesn't explain the dirty 'shadow' around this one. That would've had to take a long, long time to form while the shield was still in place.

Those are the major hits for me. There are other minor ones, but these are the ones that immediately slapped me in the face in Richard's initial photos.
If I am wrong, and the cap is right, and I have somehow lessened it's value through my dislike of it, I sincerely apologize. But IMHO that is not the case here. Real pieces sell themselves. And for me, a piece has to live up to certain minimum standards, and for all of the reasons stated, this one doesn't. And the rarer the piece, (and the more $$$) the tighter the standards. I've been lucky in that I've never had to drop 8-large on a visor cap. But it looks like if I ever want to own another one, I'll probably have to, as the days of the vet-finds are quickly coming to an end.

That's a lot of moola, and that's really all I was trying to do was prevent a costly error. My intentions were 100% honorable, I assure you. If I saw that cap for a couple of hundred bucks at the flea-market I would, of course, snap it up. But even if I got it direct from a vet, for nothing, I'd have burning suspicions. But I would never spend real money on it, and I stand by my opinion that it is suspect.

[John Pic]

Lets see....

1. Non issue..original cap insignias and the only ones that have been on the cap.Since the gray board only has a set of holes for that skull.Ill post pics of a cap with matching insignias and Ill ask a friend who is in the middle of a deal on another contract type cap made the same way to post the matching Zimmermans on his.

2.There is no real amount of fuzzy nap on the piping it for the most part has worn off and thread bare with some areas of moth bites.Some fuzz remains under the flaps etc.

3. The velvet is X-weave anyone else seen that in SS visors?If it is seen in orignals then no need to worry since most good fakes are made from original parts.

4.The chincord fits perfectly a bit tight but perfect. Id expect tightness from a fat one anyway.The buttons are TR and are marked another non issue.

5.There are scratch marks but if you look at it in hand it is not these scratches that caused the wear down of the rust color in areas on the visor and if you look inder a loop the rust color is only worn off of raised areas,consistant with normal wear for any "stipled" thing.

6.That type of sweat band is found in all SS contract caps I have seen so that too is a non issue.There are two small pin holes where thread was at the back once but if anything was there its gone.

7. huh? I posted two other caps with the same type stitching and both are unquestionable ...for most anyway.

8. Bruce Herman is selling a visor that was veteran obtained and has these same type initial tabs in them. I know who obtained the cap so Im sure its not just a story.

9. Thats ok..because I showed you two other original examples with the same exact material and NTZ did as well....I dont expect to change opinion there because in this hobby what Ive learned,and Ive been at it over 30 years as well, is that many are willing to say what they think but few admit when they are wrong..thats an adult trait and the majority of collectors are like overgrown kids.The material is coated and thus exhibits a different degree of wear but to be honest I think this is an old infrequently used piece..which wouldnt be unusual given the number of period pictures that show individual SS officers wearing different types of caps out of preference. So one may be issued a visor cap it doesnt mean he liked to wear it all the time,he may have worn an M43 24-7 while this stayed at home for picture day or in his trunk in the field..we know it was true for tunics why not caps?This thing about something that was worn needing to be "sweat drenched" to be authentic is pure nonsense/dribble and any long time collector should know this.The fact is in this hobby people make stuff up to sound as if they know something,30 years taught me that.

10.Sweat shields can be so thin and brittle and in my experience rather than bothering with it some collector(before the 80s its gotta be perfect generation) or owner removed what was left for whatever reason who knows, most fakes try to maintain a logo for effect after searching this forum and in owning a few of the higher end fake SS caps, this is highly apparent. Logos are in for fakers.

That should sum it up,alot of typing for no reason and after talking on the phone to another SS visor owner he feels that this is just a face saving attempt because God forbid we wouldnt want people to think we dont know everything.Im not being a smart ass to try and make you look wrong and me right. I appreciate your post but I would appreciate seeing any SS caps you own. If you dont own any and your hesitant to buy then I suggest a bit of hyperparanoia which is also not an uncommon trait in collectors, not a put down on you.I know 40 year collectors who know didly squat after 40 years and guys like NTZ, Stonemint,and others who after a short time learn decades worth of information.It was the most prolific dealer collector who said SS caps should all have thin cords...and people would buy that just because he said it, never mind that it was wrong.

[John Pic]

This 100% original cap bears matching Eagle and Skull.Also the chin cords had the same gaps between the knots as my recent one does.Note also the amount of "fuzzy nap" left on this heavy worn "Ilsa Lambert" cap. Im willing to wager that most makers bought the insignias from one dealer and had them applied and thet mixed matches occurred after supply exhaustion or logistics snafus.Or Mixed matched are post war adds because the originals were removed at wars end.

[John Pic]

The Skull was a beauty.

[John Pic]

Interior ,this diamond was extremely brittle and fell apart as it sat in my case, I hope the new owner was able to preserve what was left.Although it had been worn it exhibited few signs of consistant wear or heavy staining.

[John Pic]

As this one does.But note little wear under visor..wear paterns dont always tell a true story that is a collector myth.Note the wear mark under the little worn Ilse Lambert visor above and none or little on this heavy worn contract visor.

Are they fakes? No way.

[John Pic]

I look at the fake caps posted by NTZ and fail to see the faked wear and age and or the "sandpaper" effect. Collectors pushing fakes or dealers pushing them may do stuff like that bt why not go all the way and why not really put some sweat into the band why sew it in after? How did the band rip loose from the cap in front.In hand I can see where it started to do this and later the tear widened.I dont think fakers go that far but we like to believe they do. Also someone tried putting glue to help keep it from tearing further on one side..why would a faker do that?

[John Pic]

Interior of real Clemens Wagner note wide V stitches

[John Pic]

Another, note varying widths

[John Pic]

And yet another,note the metal initial Tag in this real cap.

[John Pic]

I will make this statement about no one in particular and it includes myself.
People in this hobby all the years I have been in it know how much being a recognized figure in the circles at the shows and now on the internet is an enjoyed place.

Its nice to have groups of people turn to you for advice and knowledge,especially if youve never written a book or contributed to one.To gain that prestige seems to be all the more important here on the internet forums..more so than learning true facts and sharing historical knowledge and history. Some guy who is know in his or her small circles back east or in the mid west or in California starts posting and his followers chime in and more novices become convinced whats said is gospel and start posting everything for an "is it good" festival of appraisal. I dont get these guys with alot of years that suddenly post something and ask for an opinion from guys they never ever met..nor do they know what these guys really know or dont know. Look at the Panzer General sidecap thread...a cap owned by a foremost expert authenticated by another is posted here and taken down to being a fake in minutes by two knowledgeable collectors who have handled some great stuff but do they really know what a real Panzer Generals cap looks like have either handled one? One states he has seen more than a few..where? I sure as heck havent seen alot of Panzer Generals caps?Im not cuting on Glenn he is a great collector with alot of knowledge and a super vast collection..but he has earned a rep as an expert and with that should come alot of caution at how things are worded. I think we all enjoy the status too much and the items not enough,just my opinion and another Jpic rant is on the books and please dont add a "lets stick to the cap in question" because in question here is the credentials of any of us to make expert opinion on anything without proof we have handled more than a few of the real deal.