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**marisca lrommel** · 03-29-2018, 04:47 AM

Great Cross in gold....¿No inner legend?

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**marisca lrommel** · 03-29-2018, 04:57 AM

Great Cross in Gold With Brilliant ....Unknow

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caja.jpg (73.2 KB, 144 views)

**marisca lrommel** · 03-29-2018, 05:01 AM

After seeing all this, we can see that only the first, the third and fifth class of 1943 adopted the interior legend in their cases with the name "KLASSE"

**Runic** · 04-01-2018, 04:03 PM

"I honestly believe that the Government of the Third Reich had more urgent and important things to worry in those moments that change the existing documents for the Order of the German Eagle adjusting them to the new regulacions and therefore continued using existing documents and cases and not yet modified ... "

Jesus,
I was thinking over the anomaly I posted from Christopher before I read your post. And when I read your comment, I think your quote is absolutely correct.

The Third Reich had much more to worry about than getting the names and nomenclature correct, according to regulations, on the awards they presented.

They made do with what they had ready. They "made it work." This is the reason for so many 'errors' or anomalies. Who can expect anything different from a Nation in mortal struggle for its very existence at the time??

Granted, to paraphrase Von Manstein, in one way Hitler was always "utterly soldierly," the granting of awards and the creation of them.

However, given the war situation after 1943, there was no way to keep up with changes that did not directly impact the actual war effort. By 1944, I don't think the Eagle Order's designations were of paramount importance. The war and the prosecution of the war took precedence over all else.

If an older document was ready to hand, and didn't have to be newly printed, they would use that. Also - If a Finnish Pilot - no matter how valiant - received the 'wrong' medal, according to the latest edition of the instructions, it wasn't a big deal.

I know all about "Teutonic Thoroughness," believe me, and how they would never let such a travesty of regulations 'slip through.'

I also know all about Prussian "KadaverGehorsam," the kind of Obedience that would make a Corpse jump up and salute.

However, remember that the citizens of Nurnberg, after hundreds of tons of Allied bombs, were burying their dead in paper bags by 1944, due to lack of wood for coffins. I can't believe that the pressures of war did not affect the awarding of Medals and their Urkunde. It is not conceivable.

This is just my opinion, from my experience in collecting Third Reich memorabilia - Zinc Medals, Signal Magazines with it's ever decreasing pages, strange entries about Lapland shields, etc., etc...

This doesn't help the research of the Eagle Order, but it does make a case for saying - like you experts - that the heart of the matter gets very muddled after a certain time in the war, when it was no longer possible to carry out the regulations for medals, their award, and their wear...

John

**marisca lrommel** · 04-02-2018, 12:06 PM

I'm glad you think the same as me Runic.

Another evidence of this is that until 1943 at least in Spain, the Chancellery of awards through its Embassies and Consulates promptly issued the different models of Order of the German Eagle that sent to the winners, subsequently, the winners received the award certificate and two documents, one in German and another translated into Spanish.

The document in German had to be returned to the embassy or consulate completed by helping with the document translated into Spanish but, from 1942 on, no documents were handed out to the winners although they received the Order of the German Eagle ....

This demonstrates to me that Germany was not at that time to strictly follow the protocol imposed and followed firmly until then because there were other more important concerns and the machinery of war was more important than the honors given to countries / personalities related to the III Reich. ... there was no time to make new award certificates and deliver them as they did until then ... they used what they already had manufactured.

For example the most award certificate of the silver medal with swords delivered in Spain have the same date: June 5, 1939 although they continued to deliver decorations later, also occurs with the award certificate of the Order of the German Eagle of third class. ... almost all of them are dated June 5, 1939 and May 22, 1939 ... I have to say that award certificate was continued after these dates but they are very scarce to see.

It seems that the more the war progressed, the less the bureaucracy mattered ...

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**Runic** · 05-02-2018, 06:52 PM

Jesus,
Thanks for posting these, they are excellent facts that need be mentioned, that only the Spanish recipients would realize.
And thanks for bringing up again the excellent point:
“ the more the war progressed, the less bureaucracy mattered.”
I must agree with you 100%. Anyone who studies conditions in the TR as war progressed will realize this. One other example of the exigencies of war: the German sniper bullets, in 1945, whose shells were actually made of glass, the bullets lead. These are ultra-rare but do exist.
Cheers,
John

**Yubari** · 05-03-2018, 12:29 AM

Absolutely stunning! My dream pieces!

**Peter J.** · 05-03-2018, 11:47 AM

There may be several reasons for the anomalies we’ve accounted for in this thread and maybe a bureaucracy in disarray could be one of them. I personally don’t think that’s the case though.
It’s true that the Government had more important matters to deal with than their official Orders and that lack of essential base products created new innovations i.g. the fore mentioned sniper bullet, synthetic petroleum, “Ersatz” coffee and so forth. But, I don’t think the situation in late Dec. 1943 was as dire as presented here (see enclosed map). More importantly, the main purpose for the PK was to oversee and regulate everything related to the German Orders, hence I think other “worldly” concerns had little or no effect on their abilities to perform effectively.
The main topic we discuss at the moment are the consequences of the new regulations 27Dec. 1943, primarily the wording on the lids of the cases and the documents. The new concept became Deutscher Adlerorden, which is to be found on lids on at least 5 out of 8 classes. The concept “Klasse” is found on at least 3 lids. Why the remaining cases with these wordings haven’t surfaced is still an enigma. I’ll give you guys credit for the suggestion that already produced cases were presented at times, which were not correct for the class valid for the specific period.
The really odd part is IMO still the documents. They should by regulation contain both "Deutscher Adlerorden" and “Klasse”, but except for two blank documents, I’m not aware of any. $Million question, how was the "Deutscher Adlerorden 1.Klasse" presented? All other classes could be presented both ways (i.g “Verdienstkreuz 1.Stufe des Ordens vom Deutschen Adler” versus “Deutscher Adlerorden III.Klasse”, but the I.Klasse was unprecedented. The suggestion that new documents weren’t printed in conjunction with 1943 (due to whatever reason) is questionable, new documents with “Der Führer” rather than “Der Deutsche Reichkanzler” were actually introduced around that period. Just my two bits, keep on researching guys

cheers
Peter

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map.JPG (180.4 KB, 99 views)

**marisca lrommel** · 05-06-2018, 01:00 PM

In the cases and in the award certificates if it appeared correctly written:

Deutscher AdlerOrden 1.Klasse

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**Peter J.** · 05-06-2018, 01:10 PM

Come on Jesus, we've been discussing this set before and you agreed with me it's not a document for Deutscher Adlerorden 1.Klasse, but rather a Verdienstkreuz mit Stern. I'm still waiting to see an awarded document for the former.

cheers
Peter

**marisca lrommel** · 05-07-2018, 12:09 AM

Verdienstkreuz mit Stern?
I never said such a thing ... It is very clear that it is a set of the First class of 1943-1945. Check the date of issue of the award certificate, among other details.

The Award certificate, the set of the first class and other documents are part of the same set of the same person that I saw recently for sale

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**marisca lrommel** · 05-07-2018, 12:11 AM

Look at a detail of the award certificate ... even though it is a prize of the new regulation of 1943, Erster Stufe is still playing ... however, in the case of the first class set, it puts 1.Klasse.

It is impossible that in 1942, Erster Stufe made reference to the Order with Star as you say

**marisca lrommel** · 05-07-2018, 12:15 AM

This is an example of the award certificate of the Order with Star of that time

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H0579-L38855442.jpg (67.7 KB, 79 views)

**marisca lrommel** · 05-07-2018, 12:18 AM

This other is an example of last era that was never delivered or completed. Look at the detail of that puts DEN STERN DES DEUTSCHEN ADLERORDENS

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1-75r-234148.jpg (120.4 KB, 78 views)

**Peter J.** · 05-07-2018, 06:26 AM

Jesus, you're absolutely right, I made a mistake as I didn't proof read my own comment

. I'll repeat my perpetual mantra though: please refer to the various classes with the correct lingo i.e. "Stufe" versus "Klasse". That would enable readers of this thread to actually understand the basics.

I assume you responded to my inquiry about a possible document for the 1943 1.Klasse, right? We've been through this before, but rather than trying to locate that thread, I'll once again fill in the blanks.

The two first images are spot on, a cased set of the 1.Klasse and the correct wording on the lid. The third image of the alleged Backlund group is not correct though. According to the document, Backlund received the Erste Stufe (1st Grade in English) in 1942 and that fits well with his military rank. At that time the 1.Klasse was not even instituted, hence it's obvious this set is a put-together.

"even though it is a prize of the new regulation of 1943, Erster Stufe is still playing ... however, in the case of the first class set, it puts 1.Klasse."

Once again very difficult to comprehend. An "Erste Stufe" can never transform into a "1.Klasse", it would be a "III.Klasse" by 1943. If you mean the concept "Stufe" was still in play by 1943, you're partly correct, at least regarding the cases of the Zweite Stufe, which I still haven't seen with the wording "4.Klasse".

"It is impossible that in 1942, Erster Stufe made reference to the Order with Star as you say"

Correct!

cheers
Peter

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