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**Gregorio Torres** · 12-26-2013, 03:21 PM

A lot of original award and badgess were produced by millions and their prices are ridiculous, while there are some common tinnies that worth a lot.
Prices are given by demand, and even been a non quite scarce one, this nice item is a very desiderable item for collectors, and so, the prices are still high though it´s clear at the moment that this is a common festabzeichen.
The old "literature" naming it as "Munich Gau Badge" mistakenly, photographic evidences and additions as this one posted by Matt proving that for a lot of nazis it was more than a common souvenir, and the beauty of the design, special hardware, early date, and references to the motto of the Blut Order and the Nazi Putsch, make of this item a very interesting one forever.
The one posted by Matt is a very nice one and the details of manufacture indicate a war production, IMO. I would like to have it in my collection as a rare variation.
Thank you for sharing Matt.

**Matthew** · 12-26-2013, 09:20 PM

Thanks Gregorio. I bought this pin back in 2005 for $550. Not sure what the going rate was for the regular version of this back then but I don't feel I got skinned over it.
The fact that I have never seen another marked specimen with military style pin/solid back makes me think they are not that common.
The pin itself is a regular Deschler style award with aluminum alloy backing. What is unique about it is the fact that it is silver plated. While I have seen a bronze one with military pin/solid back I have never seen a silver one with the same setup. The fact that it is marked for Deschler tells me they were 'converted' in-house.

cheers
Matt

**Jo Rivett** · 12-27-2013, 12:08 AM

Originally posted by Matthew View Post

I think it is easy to assume...

Matt, yes indeed, it is easy to assume, and you seem to be doing a fine job of that here.

Originally posted by Gregorio Torres View Post

photographic evidences and additions as this one posted by Matt proving that for a lot of nazis it was more than a common souvenir,

Naturally, otherwise we wouldn't find simple, 30 pfennig badges, (image) with personally adapted attachments, extra bits, keep-safe chains etc etc... a personal choice.

Originally posted by Matthew View Post

The fact that I have never seen another marked specimen with military style pin/solid back makes me think they are not that common.

The fact, that you and i, and everybody else here, has only seen a fraction of what was made during the Third Reich, and are seeing new items on an almost daily basis, should be enough to make you rethink that part.

Carry on the back and forth praising and elevation by all means, after all $550.- are at stake here - and if you end up selling it to someone in 10 years who believes that there was a Gau München, and who believes that the solid backing plate actually means anything special (once pinned on there is no difference in appearance) then good for you. Sorry if i sound negative but i chose to believe people who i know actually research, and have quite a good idea about what they write - in this case K.Patzwall. Period proof, or any kind of proof - like the image and description in the August 33`V.B also go a long way for me. It is, in any case better than simply words and words and words. (You may even just find someone who clings to Angolia and his ideas and be able to squeeze a few extra dollars out of it.

) - and dont tell me that you "collect only" because at some stage, you will sell!

If it`s not about the money, then why are dealers like eMedals still selling them for top dollar described as a Gau München badges (link - they have 4) Dan Kelly, etc.. even on the repro sellers sites it`s called the Gau München commemorative badge 1933.
Lets not let the legend die hey, and hunt around for that "special", possibly awarded, festabzeichen.
And before you start talking about: The fact that it is marked for Deschler tells me they were 'converted' in-house. it would be only fair if you shared your background knowledge on Deschler and what they did, and did not make, in-house, and why. Not with words, with something that will give me the impression that i am talking to a serious individual who has something to offer. Hosting an image accompanied by "I think it is easy to assume" is 100 miles away from where you need to be on this. I cant entertain "easy to assume" from someone who i cant take seriously, and until now i havnt really seen anything from you that has made me sit back and rub my whiskers. Not just on this thread, on a few. Sorry for the post-Xmas negativity Matt, but i am an honest person, and thats my opinion.

**Matthew** · 12-27-2013, 03:12 AM

every time you point a finger there are three pointing right back at you

The fact that the badge is of the solid back variety does not make it more special but it is more rare (not an assumption). In some collecting circles that makes it more desirable. I believe a correct term would be 'variant'.
Why did they make it that way? I would think that the reason to use a solid back on those was to support a wide, so-called military style pin (again- not an assumption- I have seen a few of the solid back variety and all of those came with the wide pin- none came with a needle attachment). Another words- the same reason why we see same hardware on some GPBs. Difference being this badge is of hollow variety and as such would make it a little more difficult to accommodate for that type of hardware. Use of flat backing plate to which the hardware is easily soldered eliminates that problem (not an assumption)

I believe it is of pre 1945 period (since it is an original Deschler badge) and also believe it was a factory made variation (hence the Deschler stamp on the verso).
The fact that the die characteristics of the front match any other original pin of this variety from Deschler makes it an original Deschler product.
The fact that the backing plate is also marked for Deschler would point in the direction of Deschler being responsible for putting the parts together.
While it is entirely possible that almost anyone could marry the front with the back at any time it is also highly unlikely.
You see- the front is the usual copper alloy (although missing the chocolate coating- makes sense- why coat it just to hide the coating under a silver plate and running the risk of the plating bubbling off coated surface) and backing is some form of aluminum alloy. That alone would probably give Hans, Klaus or Heinrich enough problems when trying to fuse those two together when playing with a solder gun on a lonely Saturday night to abandon or switch to different metal.
But let's assume Hans, Klaus or Heinrich had enough self-determination to finish a project like that. What do you think he did next? Gone to see Deschler to get a stamp of approval on it along with some hardware and few pointers on how to put it together? Or perhaps it was one of the 'do-it-yourself' kits sent out from Deschler to anyone wanting to alter their tinnies?
Please explain how you think it was done.

Now as for me explaining what Deschler did or did not do. That is a pretty tall order but for all intents and purposes of the badge in question we can definitely establish that Deschler was responsible for production of those badges. In fact- some believe the company was the sole supplier of those (original) pins but that is another story.

Re: Emedals. I have no idea why they are selling 4 of them under a wrong name but if it keeps you from sleeping at night why not contact them?
I know I have before but not seeing any corrections being done I gave up.
Wait till you realize that one of the 4 being sold is a fake. Oh, the horror!!

Now, I like Klaus Patzwall's work just like the next guy but bringing his name into this equation as the one who "actually knows what he's talking about and does the actual research" in a direct response to me would mean one of two things- either I don't know what I am talking about or that somehow Klaus is beyond reproach because of his research. Or perhaps both. Which is it?

While it is great to hear a praise in our hobby I wouldn't idolize anyone too much as the mistakes tend to be rather costly. And everyone makes them.

Also not sure where your comment of 'squeezing few more dollars more out of it' comes from or 'lets not let the legend die' but I am neither selling it or plan on selling it much less labelled as "Gau Munchen". Perhaps you can explain that part? What are you implying here?

I am also very sorry that I gave you the impression of 'not being serious individual who has something to offer'.
For some of us it is a hobby. By the very definition of it- I cultivate my hobby to please myself- not others. And I intend to keep it that way.
As limited as my offer is to this forum- Having a small collection I choose to share some of it with my friends here. I do what I can.
On the other hand-some of us choose not to share anything so guess it could be worse.

**Jon Fish** · 12-27-2013, 03:46 AM

Call it what you like and say what you prefer about its purpose. I can tell you something with certainty. This badge has turned up in several of my Blood Order groupings direct from the families. Here for reference is firstly the badge in wear and secondly the badge replaced by the recipient with the Blood Order once the Blutorden was struck and awarded.

Attached Files

**Matthew** · 12-27-2013, 02:47 PM

Since it was a tinnie commemorating the 10th anniversary of the Putsch I am sure it was held in higher esteem than your regular run-of-the-mill event badge.
I am sure a good percentage of the original Putschists were in attendance and therefore received those pins.
Many other less important events left us with special grades pins commemorating the events of the day (Tag Der Arbeit in solid silver for example). Some of those events produced pins in different grades (1932 HJ Potsdam pin, 1929 RPT tinnies etc.). Why is still not understood.
I do not see why this event would be any different.

cheers
Matt

**Br. James** · 01-02-2014, 11:35 AM

A further thought...or actually a reminder of an earlier thought: a little over two years ago, in a similar conversation, our colleagues Joe Wotka and “Laurens” provided a photocopy of an advertisement from the November 8, 1933 issue of "Völkischer Beobachter." This ad featured a likeness of the circular badge in question, below which are the words: "Das Festabzeichen für den 9. November in Munchen, eine Bronzeplakette mit der Inschrift: Und ihr habt doch gesiegt!" – "The festival insignia for the 9th November in Munich, a bronze badge with the inscription: And yet you have conquered!" Here we see the period reference to this badge being "bronze" in color, with no indication of a silver or gold-colored version existing at that time. This causes me to again wonder whether this same badge design might have been re-issued for sale at future annual commemorations of 8/9 November, following 1933? Indeed, to my knowledge there was no event badge issued in 1934, 1935 or later, focusing on the Putsch Commemoration, so might not there have been future 'editions' of the 1933 badge issued, and if so, in other colors?

Event badges were apparently both extremely popular and lucrative. In my opinion, if the NSDAP wanted to create an 'event badge' for the annual Putsch Commemorations, the most logical design for such a badge would have been a version of the Blood Order medal itself. But that may have brought negative feelings from the members of the 8/9 November Organization...wanting to keep the BO as exclusive as possible...so what's the next best thing? Re-issuing the 'Festival Badge for 9 November' each year, beginning with 1934...! If it was popular once, try it again!

Just some further thoughts on a cold and snowy January 2nd. Cheers,

Br. James

**ErichS** · 01-02-2014, 05:39 PM

Originally posted by Br. James View Post

A further thought...or actually a reminder of an earlier thought: a little over two years ago, in a similar conversation, our colleagues Joe Wotka and “Laurens” provided a photocopy of an advertisement from the November 8, 1933 issue of "Völkischer Beobachter." This ad featured a likeness of the circular badge in question, below which are the words: "Das Festabzeichen für den 9. November in Munchen, eine Bronzeplakette mit der Inschrift: Und ihr habt doch gesiegt!" – "The festival insignia for the 9th November in Munich, a bronze badge with the inscription: And yet you have conquered!" Here we see the period reference to this badge being "bronze" in color, with no indication of a silver or gold-colored version existing at that time. This causes me to again wonder whether this same badge design might have been re-issued for sale at future annual commemorations of 8/9 November, following 1933? Indeed, to my knowledge there was no event badge issued in 1934, 1935 or later, focusing on the Putsch Commemoration, so might not there have been future 'editions' of the 1933 badge issued, and if so, in other colors?

Event badges were apparently both extremely popular and lucrative. In my opinion, if the NSDAP wanted to create an 'event badge' for the annual Putsch Commemorations, the most logical design for such a badge would have been a version of the Blood Order medal itself. But that may have brought negative feelings from the members of the 8/9 November Organization...wanting to keep the BO as exclusive as possible...so what's the next best thing? Re-issuing the 'Festival Badge for 9 November' each year, beginning with 1934...! If it was popular once, try it again!

Just some further thoughts on a cold and snowy January 2nd. Cheers,

Br. James

A very plausible hypothesis James.

**Richard** · 01-02-2014, 06:06 PM

Though it may be plausable to assume a difference in color might denote a difference in the year of issue. too few of the silver and gold exist to lend heavily to this theory. By all rights, each successive year of any NSDAP organized event from 1933 on to the onset of war, drew more and more participants and spectators. This would lead one to believe that lots of various colored badges would exist for each successive year of such a celebration.

One would also think, rather than a color designation, it would be more apropo, even if you wanted to keep the same design, to change the date on each successive year's badge. I can't think of any other badge by which a difference in years was denoted by the color, but can think of numerous badges where the color designated a specific grade or age group, so this doesn't make much sense to me.

Is it possible some individuals might have just opted to have a well regarded badge embellished pre 1945 to suite their personal preference for "bling"? Is the base metal the same on each color of badge? Has anyone ever encountered one made in precious metal and marked as such?
Richard V

**Jo Rivett** · 01-02-2014, 07:40 PM

Originally posted by Richard View Post

Is it possible some individuals might have just opted to have a well regarded badge embellished pre 1945 to suite their personal preference for "bling"? Is the base metal the same on each color of badge? Has anyone ever encountered one made in precious metal and marked as such?
Richard V

Yes, after Angolia pretends that it was an Award..... it took off from there, and as you can still read by the few who are clinging onto that, there just Has to be something special about this, right? It just cant be a normal, stinking, found every day on every street corner, event badge as the period newspaper says, it just cant be.... Richard, i know of only one such badge you talk about, until now, a mere whisper on the wind. Makes the £70`000 Adolf Hitler bling-ring look like a WHW item. (image)

**Richard** · 01-03-2014, 07:51 AM

Originally posted by Josef Fueß View Post

Yes, after Angolia pretends that it was an Award..... it took off from there, and as you can still read by the few who are clinging onto that, there just Has to be something special about this, right? It just cant be a normal, stinking, found every day on every street corner, event badge as the period newspaper says, it just cant be.... Richard, i know of only one such badge you talk about, until now, a mere whisper on the wind. Makes the £70`000 Adolf Hitler bling-ring look like a WHW item. (image)

Jo, I assume you are referring to the VB issue posted earlier in this thread. Is there more information in this Munich edition of the VB from 1933 or is what was shown the extent of the information? I also re-read this thread and there seems to be indications that some badges may have been plated during the production process and some after. One wonders if one could "special order" certain festabzeichen if one wanted to spend the extra $? I know that there were upgrades for certain items available such as bullion cloth badges vs normal woven. Perhaps the same exists with this festabzeichen and several others?Richard V

**Jo Rivett** · 01-03-2014, 08:14 AM

Laterna magica

Laurens already posted it 3 years ago on this thread. It was mentioned a little later in 2012 in an article by Patzwall, and it was recently posted/mentioned again on the WRF by another member.

And what has changed in the past 3 years? Well Weitze, Winkler, eMedals - EVERYBODY - is still listing it as the Gau München badge

Weitze even claims that it was an Alter Kämpfer badge

And lets hope it stays like this for at least a little longer, the black sheep needs footnotes

**Richard** · 01-03-2014, 08:16 AM

Originally posted by Josef Fueß View Post

Laurens already posted it 3 years ago on this thread. It was mentioned a little later in 2012 in an article by Patzwall, and it was recently posted/mentioned again on the WRF by another member.

And what has changed in the past 3 years? Well Weitze, Winkler, eMedals - EVERYBODY - is still listing it as the Gau München badge

Weitze even claims that it was an Alter Kämpfer badge

And lets hope it stays like this for at least a little longer, the black sheep needs footnotes

I re-read the entire post and found the article posted. I also edited my previous comment to reflect this. Thanks for pointing it out Jo.
Richard V

**Jo Rivett** · 01-03-2014, 08:49 AM

Originally posted by Richard View Post

...there seems to be indications that some badges may have been plated during the production process and some after.

Richard, the plating, some call it gilding, i prefer the correct terminology "Galvanisch versilbern oder galvanisch vergolden" was mostly done by an M2/ licensed sub-contractor. (In the case of thousands and thousands of the same item, like silver-washed/bronze-washed-blackened etc.. festabzeichen/awards/badges, then definitely) There were M2/ sub-contractors who were responsible for "galvanizing" badges - and nothing else. Their M2/ numbers as well as what they were licensed to do, are mentioned in the RZM handbuch/announcement papers. There were also M2/ sub-contractors who were licensed to solder, and that is all they did, solder on attachments. So whether a badge/tinnie/button etc.. was galvanized before the attachment was soldered on or not, would depend on which channels it went though, and in which order. i.e: first to the solder sub-contractor then to the galvanizing sub-contractor or visa versa. It is not a point of interest or anything else, but because collectors dont understand the production process, or the role of the M2/ insignia hilfsfabriken, and prefer to assume instead, it becomes a point of interest.

Now, i covered all of the sub-contractors in my book, for the first time ever, since they are not mentioned in any badge book at all, and on hundreds of pages showed examples of their work. The RZM Handbuch that i have recently offered in digital form - the first time since the end of 1945 - also clearly show the M2/ numbers and what they did, BUT, i am not getting mad because "people are not listening to me" as a few members here think. In fact it is quite the opposite. Their comments are sheep food, nothing more.

We know the saying, you can lead a horse to water but cant force him to drink. It`s true, no matter how thirsty he may seem. The only difference with me though and the countless others who "led the horse", is that i wont just stand at the waterside shaking my head in amazement, wondering why he wont drink. I will talk nicely and try and persuade him that he really does, need a drink. If he still wont drink, then i`ll shoot him and walk away

Regardless of the consequences.

**jabnus** · 01-03-2014, 04:23 PM

Originally posted by Richard View Post

I can't think of any other badge by which a difference in years was denoted by the color, but can think of numerous badges where the color designated a specific grade or age group, so this doesn't make much sense to me.

Im not sure if read this right, but there have been late 1920's annual Stahlhelmbund day badges, that differ in colour (bronze/silver). The idea is that someone who attended for the second time such a meeting could instead of a bronze badge, wear a silver one. I can also think of e.g the 1929 RPT badges.

I can't prove this theory, but there is actually a greater number of these badges in both colours around.

All the good intended speculation from above aside, i don't think they have been made for more years and am still very sceptic regarding other colours as just bronze. Why are these until recently unknown? Why are there so much more silver SHB badges or 1929 RPT badges known, but untill recently not for the Munich Fest? When there is no written source available it's probably best to use common knowledge instead of wild speculation.

Just my $0,02

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Gau München Commemorative 1923-1933

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