Gau München Commemorative 1923-1933

[David North]

Dear Erich

The exact replication may not the there, however surely, the in simpatico correlation perhaps shouts out?

What may the miniature be otherwise be associated with?

Regards,

David

[JoeW]

[quote=Gregorio Torres;4791837]Dear John Pepera..... Thank you very much. You have a treasure.
Ultimately......
Now, please, we are waiting for an explanation from those who said that this one is only a event badge............................../quote]

Greg

I wish you success in your efforts to find documentation that this badge is something more than an event badge. But as of this time, the only source documentation found tells us collectors that this badge was made as a Festabzeichen. I wait for your discovery and will applaud your success in documenting some other purpose. You have a theory, but you must prove it.

[Gregorio Torres]

Too much good to be true!!!
I had read and written my last post using the small screen of my cellular. So small details scapes from my eye. Now, watching carefully in my PC the picture posted by John I think Erich maybe right. This could be a nice patriotic pin inspired in the design of the Munich Gau badge but not exactly a miniature of this one. Scroll and date must be there in a miniature, IMHO.
Anycase the chance of being an "reduced in details" version in miniature of the badge is still posible.
Joe: I think that the chance of this badge become more than common festabzeichen is more than a mere theory since a lot of proofs to support it does exists. The other one, that one which says this was just a festabzeichen is only a theory too, as the begining of the badge is not in discussion but its ultimate status, and nothing about this status after 1933 has been proved neither.
I´ll keep you informed about any progress in my purposes

[JoeW]

Oh, so the copy of documentation from the Munich VB that Laurens posted describing the badge as a Festabzeichen is only valid during the ceremonies of that second week in November. But the badge wasn't a Festabzeichen from the third week of November on because there are some of photos of guys wearing the badge.

I understand now. Best wishes in your quest.

Joe

"This hobby is a continuing education."

[Gregorio Torres]

Yes, Joe, thats what I mean exactly.
A lot of Third Reich political badges were born as Festabzeichen or common tinnies (HJ Potsdam 1932, RPT Nurnberg 1929, SA Treffen Braunschweig 1931...) and become awards with official recognition several years after been created. This is the same idea for the Gau Munich 1933 badge quoted as a Gau lebel award from decades in the best "text books" about german medals.

[ErichS]

Oh, so the copy of documentation from the Munich VB that Laurens posted describing the badge as a Festabzeichen is only valid during the ceremonies of that second week in November. But the badge wasn't a Festabzeichen from the third week of November on because there are some of photos of guys wearing the badge.

I understand now. Best wishes in your quest.

Joe

"This hobby is a continuing education."

Yes, this badge continued to be worn at least through 1935 like in the photo that I posted of the SS man from that year.

[JoeW]

Greg, no one is denying that the RPT 1929, the SA Treffen Braunschweig and others you mentioned received higher recognition after their introduction. There is a wealth of period documentation attesting to this fact.

That the Festabzeichen f.d. 9 November had any further importance is pure speculation that is based apparently on the photo earlier in this thread of the SS man wearing it in 1935. From this photo you have created a theory. So support your theory with period documentation. One can look at those photos an suppose any number of scenarios explaining why the badge was worn when the photo was supposedly taken in 1935. I mean is their any other evidence to support this fact other than a handwritten on the back Erich?

You write that it is a theory that the badge in question was called the Festabzeichen after its introduction in 1933. And you point to its description in various "text books" about German medals. Please. It is obvious they did no research on the 1933 badge. Or else they would have called it a Festabzeichen. That is the established name. It is up to you to prove that the name changed to the fanciful creation repeated in Littlejohn, Angolia and others.

[Gregorio Torres]

Please, Joe, it´s not my theory, it´s the theory of a lot of renowned researchers accused by you and others that they were written their prestigious books inventing and copying one of others.
Why do you say "It is obvious they did no research on the 1933 badge"? How do you know they did it or not?
The facts that they did not mention the resources for saying this is a "Gau level award" don´t mean they do not had it. In the same way they do not mention the resources when describing the main part of the other described badges.
I think sincerily that you and the others must be more carefull when talking and accusing to this people without any proofs.
On the other hand I can see you are not stimated all the other facts described in previous posts (manufacture and design quite different to other tinnies, special treatment by their owners who went to jewellers to put special backs, posibility of existence of miniatures, being worn long time after 1933, antecedents of other festabzeichen which become in awards...) helping to think in this one as something more than a the Festabzeichen which was firstly.

[JoeW]

Greg, I apologize for the blatant cynicism of my comments. I guess it is just the natural development of 40 years of collecting and reading the texts of these authors. I have helped some of the authors of these books dealing with III Reich collectibles. I have written chapters or have just been listed as a contributor. But over the years you can't help but notice the repeating story line of things. Not everything, but enough to develop my attitude.

The Gau Munich Commemorative Badge of 9, Nov. 1923 is an example. Perhaps Littlejohn created the title of this "badge" in his 1969 book. I would love to have been able to ask from where his information came. He lists lists limited contributors and sources. And until Laurens shared from his copy of VB, everyone called it the same thing. And given the title first created by Littlejohn, elaborations are developed to fit photographic appearances.
Take for instance this thread on another forum by Chris Ailsby: http://stirnpanzer.com/forum/gau-mun...1923-t102.html . Basically it repeats the format of Littlejohn, but adds additional information that is developed from photos he has. Notice his statement in the sixth paragraph that the your SS man wore the badge in 1935. But in another instance, here http://enamelsofwar.homestead.com/files/Gau_04_2005.JPG he states the badge was awarded as late as 1934-1935. That is two years. January 1934 was just two month after the celebration in Munich. Perhaps he visited both that event and the 1933 RPT.

I don't deny these authors dedication in producing books. I know I have never been able to produce anything more than magazine articles. But I feel that I have a right to offer my opinion and criticism.

[SiPo]

:I don't deny these authors dedication in producing books. I know I have never been able to produce anything more than magazine articles. But I feel that I have a right to offer my opinion and criticism.

Joe, you underestimate your achievements. The articles you have written have been fastidiously researched and are always excellently presented and I have no doubt that should you ever commit to writing a book, it will be delivered in the same manner.

The mere fact that such authors come to you, as I do, for your knowledge and opinion speaks volumes, and I for one will always listen to your opinions or critiscism as I know they will be offered constructively.

[laurens]

Let's hope to find the definate answere on this badge soon. Till that time I'm with Joe and back up his theory 100%.

First their was a so-called connection with the BO. Ever seen a Blutordenträger (for example Himmler) wearing this badge? Ever seen a high Third Reich figure wearing this badge?

I found a picture that was probable taken at the RPT'34 (introduction BO March 1934) were you can see Hitler shaking hands with relatives of some victims of the '23 Putch. You can see Adolf Wagner wearing his Blutorden. In the row of relatives a SA-Obertruppführer (a NCO) is standing, wearing the Festabzeichen. When there was a connetion between those two badges, the Obertruppführer would have worn the BO too. So the Blutorden-Festabzeichen connection is not true. Right?

If this Festabzeichen had some real importance you would expect important people wearing it.

Joe, I lost your address. Mail me so you can place the picture here.

[ErichS]

Due to the evidence that I have seen to date, I have to agree with Joe regarding the purpose of this badge until new information comes forth. I think that this badge like the 33 RPT badge, was worn for a while after the event due to the importance of the 10th anniversary of the Putsch to the participant.

[speedytop]

Hi,

a very interesting discussion!

The only real primary source can be seen here in Post 48.
It was a "Festabzeichen". No commemorative badge, no decoration/award. A tinnie as hundred others in that time.
"Festabzeichen", translated festival badge, mean in Germany, that everybody could buy such a piece, before the event, during the event and afterwards.

Do we know, that the handwritten year 1935 is correct on the picture in Post 15?


Who "produced" the name Gau München Erinnerungsabzeichen des 9. November1923? = Gau Munich commemorative badge 9th November 1923
Because it was definitely not a commemorative badge!
Could it be, that all the post war authors didn't know the correct designation?
I think yes, they really didn't know it.

Now let us have a look on the "renowned researchers".
In my oldest catalogue from 1958 (James A. Sawicki, NAZI Decorations and Medals 1933-1945), I cannot find this badge, only the known official party badges.

The next name here must be Dr. Kurt-Gerhard Klietmann. In his books I can not find this badge.

In several other books from Rudolf Kahl (two books, no date, may be 1969/1970?), Littlejohn/Dodkins (1970), Angolia (1978), Forman's (1988) I can find this badge and I can always find the name Klietmann.

Is Klietmann the innovator of the wrong name? It seems so.

Greg:
"... authors as Angolia, Littlejohn, Lumsdem, even Formann put a tinnie among the awards in their books? Why?"
We know, just here in the thread, that it is not an official decoration.
And when Angolia is cited here, we can read there:
"This badge never received official recognition as a national award, and is included here only because it is so closely related to the Blood Order."

Greg:
"I think sincerily that you and the others must be more carefull when talking and accusing to this people without any proofs."
All these authors, beginning with Sawicki, list a sports badge DRL without swastika as a period Third Reich sports badge.
That is not correct, we now know it, but like others wrote here (JoeW):
"The answer is that later authors often repeat what the first author wrote."

Before I don't see a primary source about the name "Gau München Erinnerungsabzeichen des 9. November1923", this badge is for me a "Festabzeichen für den 9. November in München", not a decoration, and never awarded.

I agree with Joe, laurens and Erich.

Uwe

[JoeW]

Here is the photo that Laurens asked me to post for him.



Discussing this with him, we agree that the photo was not taken during the RPT '34, but rather at a "Neunte Elfte" ceremony on the Koenigsplatz. But what year? As both Wagner and Hess are wearing their BO, it would be 1934 or later. ErichS posted this photo identified as Hitler at the internment ceremony in November 1935. Notice Hitler is not wearing a cross strap, so 1935 is out.



So it is 1934 or 1936 or later. As the view in Laurens photo is to the south, these relatives of the deceased 16 were probably seated in front of the future location of the south Ehrentemple (1934) or before the temple itself (1936 and later). The SA NCO is wearing his Festabzeichen. So I would tend to think the photo dates to 1934, as the Festabzeichen still represented a spectacular event the year before.

I don't understandLaurens comment " In the row of relatives a SA-Obertruppführer (a NCO) is standing, wearing the Festabzeichen. When there was a connetion between those two badges, the Obertruppführer would have worn the BO too. So the Blutorden-Festabzeichen connection is not true. Right?" Why would we consider the SA man to have a BO?

But his photo raises an interesting question about the event. Are all the relatives of the fallen from Nov. 1923 in that group? After the Ehrentemples were built and the bodies transfered, were the surviving relatives invited to each subsequent event? If so, would the relatives be divided by where their relative lay in his sarcophagus? Anyone know?

[Gregorio Torres]

The SA NCO is wearing his Festabzeichen. So I would tend to think the photo dates to 1934, as the Festabzeichen still represented a spectacular event the year before.

Yes....
In a meeting with the Fuhrer, an NCO SA have nothing better to be worn on his uniform than a tinnie of a celebration from the last year (maybe from several years before as the explanation to dated the picture in 1934 is not unanswerable)
Sorry. This do not sound too much convincing for me.
I´m still thinking that If this badge wasn´t became much more than a Festabzeichen it had been worn for their owners in this kind of ceremonies for years NEVER.
Do you have any other examples of tinnies been used for years after the event for an NCO SA in a formal meeting with the Fuhrer?
Joe: Thank you very much for posting this nice picture. It helps to support the idea that this badge became a valued award for their recipients, even when it begin as a simple Festabzeichen.