Gau München Commemorative 1923-1933

[JoeW]

Smithee, here is a photo from 1935 of an Ostereicher Volunteer who later entered the Totenkopf Div. Being that he's and Austrian and along with his young age this would have precluded him from being a Putsch participant. To me, this photo is pretty convincing proof that the GMB was also awarded for other purposes after the introduction of the BO.

Erich, I am looking at the picture you posted and I can't help but believe that is a 1933 RPT tinnie on his tunic next to the Festabzeichen. Are you sure this was a 1935 photo and not taken during a shortly after the 9.11.33 celebration? Isn't he an SS-Mann in the SD?

[JoeW]

......As others have alluded though, there may be a little more to this badge than just being a celebration item and as originally suggested by Jon, I wonder if the badge had a short period of status similar to the 1929 RPT, the 1931 SA Treffen and the 1933 RPT?
Regards,
David

Or maybe not Dave. I am not trying to be argumentative, but it seems that the baseless idea that this was a special badge of Gau Munchen-OB just can be let go. I use the term baseless as there is at this time NO period documentation that the badge was anything more than the description in Lauren's copy of the VB. A Celebration Badge. It was not called an Erinnerungsabzeichen to commemorate the Putsch. The descriptions of the badge found in our collecting bibles have no foundation. To equate it to those others badges would be fine if some documentation could be shown. Nothing in the Organisationsbuchs starting in 1936. But what about the earlier NSDAP Jahrbuchs?

[der-hase-fee]

I don't know if Andreas' book "Und Ihr Habt Doch Gesiegt" contained any photos, but the police magazine article did. t he has not figured out where to place? If a large GPB, it couldn't have been worn anywhere without the loops added to the blouse. The Festabzeichen had a pin that could pierce the cloth of the blouse.

Only one similar to those attached below (source: Bildarchiv Preussischer Kulturbesitz). Actually the second from a higher position to the right.

[ErichS]

Jon, to me the term Festabzeichen connotes a tinnie, that may have gained in stature after the party to be continued in wear. We don't know. All we know is what it was called and that the Tenth Anniversary was quite a celebration.

I don't know if Andreas' book "Und Ihr Habt Doch Gesiegt" contained any photos, but the police magazine article did. Unfortunately, the focus was not the best of those of the celebration, but at least one shows the Festabzeichen in wear. This photo is titled "The Fuhrer amongst the old Fighters in the Sterneckerbraeu". The man to the left of the leaning Hitler is wearing what must be the Festabzeichen.


The first awardings of the GPB were made in Munich during this celebration. So it is difficult to determine if the next two photos are GPBs or the Festabzeichens.

This first photo is described as taken during the unveiling ceremony of the Mahnmal in the Feldherrnhalle. Notice the badge below Hitler's left pocket flag. It is not directly above the EKI where he usually wore it. It this a Festabzeichen or his newly acquired GPB that he has not figured out where to place? If a large GPB, it couldn't have been worn anywhere without the loops added to the blouse. The Festabzeichen had a pin that could pierce the cloth of the blouse.



Finally, this photo of Hitler and Schwarz on the balcony of the Braun House, shows a pin on Schwarz that by its position is most likely a GPB. The light on Hitler makes recognizing his hardware diffcult.

Joe, I doubt that's the GPB that Hitler is wearing because he didn't start wearing one until 1936.

The SS Mann photo was dated 1935 and the 33 RPT continued to be worn after the event even though it only held tradition status and not National status like the 29 RPT badge.

[laurens]

I think the lack of information that can be found on this Festabzeichen is a direct proove that the badge was indeed a Festabzeichen and certainly no Ehrenzeichen. Otherwise you would expect at least a publication in some Verodnungsblätter or something.

The introduction of the Blutorden was published in the SA-Verordnungblatt in March 1934. Nothing mentioned about a certain forerunner or that it replace something else.

Erich's pictures in post #4 showed a young HJ fellow, who's at least 18 or 19 at the picture? He must have been 9 years of age when he participated in the Hitler-Putsch (when suggested the Blutorden and 'our' badge had some connection)

The other picture posted by Erich is a cut of the group picture with Karl Ernst with men wearing the Freikorps Rossbach armband who were active in Preussen. I don't think many people from that area in Germany were active in the Hitler-Putsch in 1923.

I chased done all my files and books to find more. Nothing in the Nat.Soz. Jahrbücher.
The only thing I can add from Daten der Geschichte by Volz:

"8./9.November: Zehnjahrenfeier der Erhebung von 1923 in München. Am 9.November Erinnerungsmarsch vom Bürgerbräukeller zur Feldherrnhalle und Einweihung des Ehrenmals an der Feldherrnhalle durch den Führer".

I'm still thinking that it was a badge for that particular event....

[ErichS]

Laurens, you have convinced and converted me to your way of thinking with the proof that you have found regarding that the badge being produced for 10th anniversary of the Putsch. It's interesting to note that there seems to have been two makers of this badge. The Deschler marked badge with the flat 3'S and an unmarked one with rounded 3's. Anyone have an idea on why two makers were needed to supply the badge for this event?

Here's a booklet that I have and had posted on another thread with the hour by hour events at the 1933 10yr anniversary.

[Richard]

This thread has provided some interesting information. It was previously stated that the Organisationsbuch der NSDAP made no mention of this award, which is true. Every tinnie elevated to any type of honor status is mentioned in these volumes. It contains the 1929 Reichsparteitag badge as well as the 1931 SA Treffen badge. As I understand, Detlev never believed the Gau Osthannover badge to be any more than a tinnie in the bronze version. However this badge in gold, silver and bronze is also depicted in the Organisationsbuch as a Gau Ehrenzeichen. It would seem odd that this item would have been left out if it held any significant party status.

I still believe it is a badge that is much scarcer than the 1933 Reichstag tinnie, but it does appear it was produced in celebration of the 10th anniversary of the Putsch in Munich. I can find no pictures of any of the 1933 Reichsparteitag celebration that shows this badge in wear, though there are many with the Reichsparteitag tinnie. To me, this would indicate its production was after the September Reichsparteitag celebration in Nurenburg. 1933 was a banner year for celebrations, the Nazis won control, the 1933 Reichsparteitag took place and it was the 10th anniversary of the Putsch.

Richard V

[ErichS]

1933 RPT was in Sept.
1933 Putsch celebration was in Nov.
So it makes sense that you would not see the Munich badge in Nurnberg.

[Richard]

1933 RPT was in Sept.
1933 Putsch celebration was in Nov.
So it makes sense that you would not see the Munich badge in Nurnberg.

Correct Erich. That was my point. It appears this badge was manufactured to coincide with the anniversary and not any sooner. This would put a bit more weight on the side of it being a commemmorative as they were probably produced specifically for the November celebration.

The fact that they carry the current year of production and don't refer to the date of the actual event (dual date tinnies are pretty common listing both the date of the original event and the subsequent anniversary date) is a bit odd. This also sets them apart from the normal commemmorative tinnies. There is not mention of the event, just the year and the motto.
Richard V

[Erich B.]

With the year 1933 and the motto I doubt that anyone in München would not know that the badge was to commemorate the 10 year festivities.
Most likely the badge was sold to help raise money to offset the costs of the festival and the high quality (when compared to actual tinnies) of the strike was because the badges were expected to be keepsakes of the anniversary of what was considered to be one of, if not the most, important events in the history of the NSDAP.
Erich

[ErichS]

With the year 1933 and the motto I doubt that anyone in München would not know that the badge was to commemorate the 10 year festivities.
Most likely the badge was sold to help raise money to offset the costs of the festival and the high quality (when compared to actual tinnies) of the strike was because the badges were expected to be keepsakes of the anniversary of what was considered to be one of, if not the most, important events in the history of the NSDAP.
Erich

Well put Erich, not your average tinnie to be sure!

[David North]

When was the unique to event declaration of "UND IHR HABT DOCH GESIEGT" first coined? Pre November 1933?

Regards,

David

[ErichS]

A good question. My guess would be when the Mahnmal was designed.

[JoeW]

[quote=ErichS;4750218]Joe, I doubt that's the GPB that Hitler is wearing because he didn't start wearing one until 1936./quote]

Just curious if you know the reason? I looked at the blue RPT 1936 book and he wasn't wearing it then.

[ErichS]

[QUOTE=JoeW;4760534]

Joe, I doubt that's the GPB that Hitler is wearing because he didn't start wearing one until 1936./quote]

Just curious if you know the reason? I looked at the blue RPT 1936 book and he wasn't wearing it then.

Hi Joe, no reason was ever given but after 36 he always wore one.