Hitler uniform

[TxGauleiter]

Provenance and chain of custody mean absolutely, positively nothing...

Anything could have been substituted knowingly or unknowingly at any point in history. (an item could have been plucked and replaced with intent to deceive by the owner, or it could have been done by another party without the owner even noticing)

I remember watching a baseball game when a historical, record-breaking home run was hit. Afterwards, it was said that the home run ball was immediately sold after the game for hundreds of thousands of dollars. I remember thinking, "the ball that was hit for the home run could have been stashed in a bag, while a substitute ball (hidden in a pocket beforehand, just in case) could have been introduced as the original and sold".. the person who caught the ball could have had the best of both worlds- the money and the trophy.

Point being, the fact that there is a story that alleges that a visor, medal, and shirt came from Hitler's apartment in no way assures that THIS visor, medal and shirt are those claimed.

In fact, the mere fact that this grouping is now in Gottlieb's possession makes it even more questionable to me, for I don't trust anything associated with that person's name. There are plenty of threads here that attest to the unscrupulous, dishonest nature of said dealer.

[Bob Hritz]

Well, the good news is that those of you who do not believe this group can put your millions back in the bank and wait for something else to add to your collections of unique, 7 figure items.

Bob Hritz

[Stephen Stout]

Are there any pictures of this group besides the one in the thread with the hat and books?

[Bob Coleman]

Well, the good news is that those of you who do not believe this group can put your millions back in the bank and wait for something else to add to your collections of unique, 7 figure items.

Bob Hritz

Bravo and well said!

[Glenn McInnes]

Craig Gottlieb owns the Hitler group.

Were you there when the transaction happened Mr Hritz?










Glenn

[blitzkrieg gsd]

Bob thanks for seconding my emotion on what to do with my money. And it seems like I'm not the only one who has decided to wait for something better. This group should have sold at the last SOS. If it wasn't for the questions in the groups past.

[Bob Hritz]

Were you there when the transaction happened Mr Hritz?










Glenn

I know both the buyer and seller and have discussed this with both. I have no reason to disbelieve either party. I would have liked to have gotten the medals, but the price was beyond my ability. And, the group will cost much more than the million I hear bantered around.

I am also familiar with the group from 1970 on and have had the pleasure to see and examine the collection on a number of occasions. I remember when the lawsuit was in progress over the ownership. Ray Zyla paid twice for that group, knowing its historical significance.

Bob Hritz

[Glenn McInnes]

Thank you Bob,

I do know (and I have seen it many times) that if a dealer can not sell something then they pass it on to another dealer in the hopes that maybe he can sell it.

I just don't see CG being in the financial position of shelling out that kind of money for this group in the "hope" that it will sell,and having that kind of money tied up in something that may,or may not sell in a reasonable amount of time.

Considering the somewhat shrouded history on these items I am not so sure if it would be a very wise purchase and most likely the reason why it is not sold..






Glenn

[Bob Coleman]

Thank you Bob,

I do know (and I have seen it many times) that if a dealer can not sell something then they pass it on to another dealer in the hopes that maybe he can sell it.

I just don't see CG being in the financial position of shelling out that kind of money for this group in the "hope" that it will sell,and having that kind of money tied up in something that may,or may not sell in a reasonable amount of time.

Considering the somewhat shrouded history on these items I am not so sure if it would be a very wise purchase and most likely the reason why it is not sold..






Glenn

Glenn-
I believe the term "shrouded" is likely due to the current owner of the items. As in the case of Bob Hritz, I also had the opportunity to see and examine these items going back to the time the material came out. I never felt Ray Zyla was actively trying to market the set as it was a huge draw for his business. Ray had the set on display at the last Max Show held in St. Louis. It was at that time that ownership passed to Steve Wolfe. Steve has had the set in his collection up until the time it passed to CG. No one ever questioned the legitimacy or provenance of these items until the time CG obtained them. I saw the items on display at the last SOS and have no doubt they are the same pieces Ray Zyla veteran aquired way back when. I have no investment in this group and am only, as did Bob Hritz, attesting to what we know and saw. I have yet to hear any of the negative posters who can provide our type of experience with the material. I think this is more of CG bashing than the that of the Hitler group

[blitzkrieg gsd]

This thread was not started to bash anyone! Only to find out the truth and chain of events with the group. Glad to hear from some of you guys who have put hands on this group. That's what I was hoping to hear. I wanted to see what kind of info was out there about the group that I hadn't heard yet. And I have learned quite a lot about it from you guys. Fact is that this group still hasn't sold to a collector. And there is a reason for this we can guess what it is but who knows. In my mind it don't have anything to do with the seller it's the idea something could be wrong. When your talking this kind of money there's no room for second guessing.

[Glenn McInnes]

Glenn-
I believe the term "shrouded" is likely due to the current owner of the items. As in the case of Bob Hritz, I also had the opportunity to see and examine these items going back to the time the material came out. I never felt Ray Zyla was actively trying to market the set as it was a huge draw for his business. Ray had the set on display at the last Max Show held in St. Louis. It was at that time that ownership passed to Steve Wolfe. Steve has had the set in his collection up until the time it passed to CG. No one ever questioned the legitimacy or provenance of these items until the time CG obtained them. I saw the items on display at the last SOS and have no doubt they are the same pieces Ray Zyla veteran aquired way back when.

I should have said a "checkered" past as there seems to be several stories out there about previous ownership and if anything was,or was not added to the group. An example in quotation marks.


"The above photograph dates from 1969 and shows one of the visor caps to which various related depositions and affidavits refer as having been stolen from Ben Lieber together with other items from his Adolf Hitler Collection. The other cap was described as a mouse-grey "stormtrooper" style cap. Although period newspaper articles refer to caps taken from Hitler's Munich apartment by Lieber, none of the accompanying photographs seem to show these caps. In other words, the earliest photographic evidence dates from the end of the 1960s, when the collection had already passed through the hands of dealers whose reputations for passing off fakes and forgeries are well-known to the point of causing merriment amongst collectors. By 1981, when the photograph below appeared in a magazine article, credited to Mohawk Arms, the cap had been somewhat straightened out."





I would not be surprised to see this stuff ending up with Hermann Historica.






Glenn

[Thorsten B.]

I would not be surprised to see this stuff ending up with Hermann Historica.

Now it´s not the right time for that.

[TxGauleiter]

Glenn-
I have yet to hear any of the negative posters who can provide our type of experience with the material.

Your "type of experience" didn't help you with the Emil Maurice grouping or the Hitler tunic you pretend is real..

[blitzkrieg gsd]

Your "type of experience" didn't help you with the Emil Maurice grouping or the Hitler tunic you pretend is real..

Now were getting into talk I have no idea about. And I thought the tunic we are talking about was the only one. So now are you telling me it's not the only one? Someone else says they have one.

[Johnny R]

There are more than one of "Hitler's" tunics that survived. The Russian government has several and I imagine there are more elsewhere beyond what we are discussing. I know there are other items in Germany that are "off the radar". I believe the set is real, the most convincing evidence are period images of the set with the veteran in the newspaper and the sworn testimonies surrounding the court case.