Runic brooch photo

[Gran Sasso]

Is this a runic brooch?

[Thorsten B.]

Looks good - probably a Sternzeichen.

[jabnus]

Is this a runic brooch?

It's not a brooch with a rune character, but with a zodiac sign, namely that of "Capricorn". The use of runes is quite different than that of zodiac signs, while there are some overlapping historical backgrounds, the use of runes has a quite different meaning (see the piece i did on housemarks a few months back) that is often much more "personal". The capricorn sign has a background of the start of winter, but (at least for me when seeing this brooch) that's quite far sought to relate directly to any (period) runic brooches.

Can you show us the back please? I wonder what hardware the brooch has, it looks quite new from this one picture and im not convinced at all it is old and from before 1945. Maybe Thorsten can tell you why it looks like a good runic brooch to him?

[Dmv]

I like it!
It's a Capricorn constellation upside down.

[Thorsten B.]

Exactly - a Sternzeichen.

And these were used within the period on NS and SS cultural pieces - no doubt.

[Dmv]

My plate is from the period
(But not SS, belonged to a Heer soldier and his family)

[Gran Sasso]

Thanks for your replies, very interesting - here is the back:

[jabnus]

I like it!
It's a Capricorn constellation upside down.

Michel, your plate is (used as) a calender and i very much doubt it is a NS (or SS) piece, it may be period but so were also potatoes to eat, or bricks to build houses, NS or SS members may have eaten or used those but does that make them then NS/SS items? You write the plate came from the estate of a heer soldier, i presume they ate potatoes too and used bricks to build a house too? Unless it is also carved with swastika's or certain runes, it is of no relevance in this topic or in a NS or SS collection and probably hard to prove to be from the period of 1933-1945. Or should we all go and collect old random items that were once touched by German person in WWII? I have a few very large groupings of people who lived in WWII but the many random items in them are definately not all NS or SS.

The background of the zodiac characters is not a Germanic history, especially not the same as e.g the made up List runes. At best it evolved from a Hellinistic or Roman perspective in Northern Europe (Germany?). I presume it doesn't need an explanaition here regarding the difference between Roman/Hellinistic (that evolved into even jewish astronomy) and Germanic backgrounds? To be short it's "just" a calender and appearantly by your photo was also used as such by adding the names of people (children most probably) to the timearea of the year when they were born or had their birthday.

This brings us to the symbols themselves: zodiac characters are probably equally unknown to many collectors as runic- or housemark characters are. I've talked to a few collectors who thought that all these "strange" characters are the same and that thus every item with either one of the charaters of these three groups must be a wartime item, this is definately not the matter and very wrong to interpret as such!!!

Looks good

+

Exactly - a Sternzeichen.

And these were used within the period on NS and SS cultural pieces - no doubt.

So...? How should we read these replies Thorsten? At best they are very vague. Can you please enlighten us what you mean with "it looks good" or "these were used within the period on NS and SS cultural pieces - no doubt"? Do you suggest that zodiac signs are Germanic symbols? I strongly disagree!

Of course it possible these zodiac characters were used on a wooden item or in/on jewelry, but so what? As said people before 1945 ate potatoes too, does that make all potatoes SS items? Similar to runes or housemarks zodiac symbols have been used for many hundreds of years throughout Europe (and beyond), so what...?


Regarding the brooch, thanks for the showing the reverse. Please see above, it's definately not a runic brooch.

Gaston

[Thorsten B.]

Happy collecting!

[Dmv]

Hello Gaston, I owe you a response.
It wasn’t about my plate, I just wanted to show the same zodiac characters.

Michel, your plate is (used as) a calender and i very much doubt it is a NS (or SS) piece,

Never claimed it to be

You write the plate came from the estate of a heer soldier, i presume they ate potatoes too and used bricks to build a house too? Unless it is also carved with swastika's or certain runes, it is of no relevance in this topic or in a NS or SS collection and probably hard to prove to be from the period of 1933-1945. Or should we all go and collect old random items that were once touched by German person in WWII?

It is named and dated…the guy shows up on volksbund…hard evidence, no vague story.

Unless it is also carved with … certain runes

It has one, but I don’t value that much, could also be the sig rune of the maker…

To be short it's "just" a calender and appearantly by your photo was also used as such by adding the names of people (children most probably) to the timearea of the year when they were born or had their birthday.

That’s exactly what it is with the family tree on the back

[jabnus]

Hi Michel,

Thanks for this, we're probably on the same page, but for sake of Thorsten it's wise to type these replies because else we will see each and every item with a zodiac sign being mis-labeled as an NS or SS item from now. Unfortuantely we've see this too often.

Named and dated is very nice, as is the link to the volksbund, but...it still doesn't make it an particular NS or SS item. Excuse the bad chosen example, but im sure he probably lived in a house built with bricks too, but because of that not every brick is an NS or SS item. The same with this plate (unlesssomethign specific is on it we don't know yet).

best regards,
Gaston

[Thorsten B.]

SS cultural plate out of the estate of the leader of SS-standarte 56 in Bamberg.

Happy collecting!

[Thorsten B.]

More details - the plate resides in a german collection.

[Thorsten B.]

Not only a master- but a religious piece for cultic use and decor within the SS family home.

[sgstandard]

Astrology

While it is well known that some members of the Nazi hierarchy dabbled in astrology, isn't it true that astrologers and fortune tellers were banned in Nazi Germany? I believe the astrology brooch COULD have been worn during that period, but I doubt it has ANY association with National Socialism. The Nazi leaders AND it's members may have dabbled in astrology, and the big shots may even have had their own personal astrologers, but a firm tie between National Socialism theme or policy and astrology is a stretch, IMO. Since thousands of different tinnies represent the symbols and themes of Nazi life, if someone shows me such an item with an astrological sign on it, I will admit to being wrong. I just don't believe it was part of the Nazi theme. That's why the astrological wooden bowl doesn't make sense to me. Of course, it's possible, but IMO, it's quite a stretch to connect NS and astrology in any official capacity.