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**Br. James** · 09-14-2012, 05:51 PM

That's really remarkable news, Obersalzberg! I hadn't heard that previously, and given the state of the German infrastructure, the devastated heavy industry system nationally, and the overwhelming loss of jobs and personal income, that sounds like one of the finest gestures toward reconstruction of the country that I know of! Thank you so much for sharing that important historical footnote!

Br. James

**CPB** · 09-17-2012, 07:28 AM

Re the formal pattern pieces, it is well documented that the ones used in the Eagle's Nest were ordered in July 1938 - some 9 months before Hitler's 50th birthday in April 1939. It's therefore pretty safe to say that this pattern was not ordered as part of any birthday set for him.

[Source: "History of the Eagle's Nest" by Florian Beierl, page 114. There you can see a scan of the original order].

Seeing as the formal pattern pieces were clearly reserved for 'top end' locations like the above, it's also a pretty safe bet that the 'informal' pieces were just that - for everyday use, either at the Berghof or the apartment and so on. Again, one could also deduce that these were produced prior to 1938. But that last bit is more of a hunch than anything.

**Br. James** · 09-18-2012, 09:20 AM

Dear CPB,

MANY thanks for this fascinating information! While I have a fairly substantial number of books on the Kehlstein Haus, the Berghof and their environs and histories, you refer to one that I don't find in my library...and I'll change that in quick order!

I agree that if the silverware ordered for the Kehlstein Haus -- the creation of which was itself a 50th birthday present arranged by Bormann for Hitler -- was ordered in July of 1938, that would put it well before Hitler's actual birthday, but of course the building of the Kehlstein Haus was never kept secret from Hitler; he visited it and proudly showed off the construction progress to those who visited him at the Berghof before his birthday. So, at least in that sense, anything designed and created for the Kehlstein Haus Project -- the building itself, with its furniture, fabrics, fixtures, and yes, the silverware, too -- would be considered to be part of the occasion for which they were created: Hitler's 50th birthday celebration.

But for me, seeing a copy of the original silverware order -- assumedly placed with the Bruckmann firm -- would also show who placed the order, as well as how many pieces of flatware were ordered, and these two facts may hold several important 'keys' for us who collect and enjoy these pieces.

I agree with your logical thinking regarding the possible uses for pieces in the patterns we now refer to as the "Formal" and the "Informal" settings -- the Formal often being called the State Service -- and I hope to see some reference to the Formal Pattern service pieces being ordered for use at the Kehlstein Haus in the Beierl book. Of course, none of Hitler's residences were solely dedicated to personal or 'informal' use; it is well known that he entertained international dignitaries, officials and guests of state at all of his residences, as well as aboard his private trains and his yacht. Therefore, while I do not disagree with your thought that the Informal Pattern was created for 'everyday use' while the Formal was for important guests and occasions of state, apparently each of Hitler's residences would have had significant quantities of both patterns of silverware present and available since all of them would occasionally be used for formal guests as well as for use by the household daily...including Hitler himself, when present.

I suppose another possibility would be that, given the great number of pieces in each of these silver sets -- we are told that the Formal Pattern included 3,000 pieces and the Informal 1,000 pieces, and whether or not these figures included serving dishes of numerous sizes, vases, coasters, napkin rings, etc., many of which are found in both patterns, we have no idea today -- portions of both settings could have been ordered from Bruckmann and Wellner (for the plates and ancillary pieces) over time, directly from one or more of Hitler's residences? Altogether a fascinating subject! Many thanks again for your direction here!

Br. James

**CPB** · 09-18-2012, 02:05 PM

The order states there are 750 pieces in total, all bound for the kHaus. It also details the number for each item [eg. 8 x sugar tongs etc].

They were not ordered directly from Bruckmann - but rather through an intermediary firm [a goldsmiths] but the name is partly obscured. [Looks like "FH Wand..." ..something, based in Munich unsurprisingly]

Interestingly too, the order does not detail the specific design of each piece which makes me believe this was not the first time this 'pattern' had been ordered. From that we can deduce perhaps that formal pattern pieces were in use sometime before July 1938 - proving - almost for certain - that they were not meant as a birthday gift for AH. And maybe too that, by this point, the informal pattern was discontinued.

Chris

**CPB** · 09-18-2012, 02:08 PM

I have somewhere too photocopies of many other items ordered around this time for the KH, including porcelain and glass tumblers - together with their sizes and "AH" engraving. They spent thousands on furniture for the place too, all documented.

**Br. James** · 09-19-2012, 12:49 PM

Very interesting -- thanks, Chris! I am wondering what was the origin of your thought that these silverware pieces were in what we are referring to as the Formal Pattern? Were there any photos attached to the order form? If this order was not made with the Bruckmann firm, and if there are no pix to illustrate the design of what was being ordered, it seems to me that this document copy does not establish that either the Formal or the Informal Pattern was being ordered here. As we know, silver tableware pieces bearing an AH monogram of one design or other are numerous, as are the makers that produced them, but it is the Bruckmann firm that created the Formal and the Informal Patterns. This order form may represent a special set of silverware that was designed and created specifically for the Kehlstein Haus, and may have nothing to do with what we know as the AH Formal and Informal Patterns.

Br. James

**CPB** · 09-19-2012, 12:58 PM

Yes a fair point for sure. I would imagine though that it is the formal pattern as, to my knowledge, no other pattern was found at this location in these quantities (750 pieces).

The haul that Bill Shea picked up a year or so back came from the Khaus and was all formal pattern. Of course, that doesn't allow for another set also being up there it's just that noone's ever uncovered one.

As to ordering direct from Bruckmann? I don't see why the authorities wouldn't go via a third party instead. It's the same for the porcelain ordered for the Khaus - it was mainly Meissen but was not ordered DIRECTLY with Meissen but via a company specialising in ceramics and table wear. I have a copy of the paperwork and I will dig it out.

Chris

**ErichS** · 09-19-2012, 04:59 PM

Originally posted by CPB View Post

Yes a fair point for sure. I would imagine though that it is the formal pattern as, to my knowledge, no other pattern was found at this location in these quantities (750 pieces).

The haul that Bill Shea picked up a year or so back came from the Khaus and was all formal pattern. Of course, that doesn't allow for another set also being up there it's just that noone's ever uncovered one.

As to ordering direct from Bruckmann? I don't see why the authorities wouldn't go via a third party instead. It's the same for the porcelain ordered for the Khaus - it was mainly Meissen but was not ordered DIRECTLY with Meissen but via a company specialising in ceramics and table wear. I have a copy of the paperwork and I will dig it out.

Chris

Yes, it's not uncommon for manufacturers to use distributors to move their product so this would make sense.

**V.I.D.** · 09-19-2012, 08:08 PM

As far as I am concerned, this thread offers some truly brand new information on AH silverware that was not seen on this forum for years. I'd really hope it could be turned into a sticky, so that pertinent new information can be added to it as we learn more about the silverware origin/history in the future.

**Br. James** · 09-20-2012, 07:56 AM

Thanks very much, Chris. When dealing with such unique and specialized items as those designed and developed for the use of one specific person -- AH silverware in this case -- it seems difficult to prove a negative by what was found at the Kehlstein Haus...and what was not found there. As I look at other threads here on WAF, I constantly see things that I have never seen before (I am thinking now of event badges), and yet they have existed for perhaps 85 or more years and resided in someone's collection for several decades. Such badges represent events that I didn't know took place, but that has no bearing upon the reality. When considering personalized silverware -- something much more obscure than an event badge -- it is very hard to prove that something didn't exist, even if no examples have yet turned up in collections. I think we do know that people liked to show their respect for their Führer and for Hermann Göring, as well, by having a jeweler create sets of beautiful silverware -- cased spoon sets or forks, etc. -- and sending them off to their honoree as presents for all occasions.

I do see your point regarding ordering procedures for silverware. I have obviously been thinking too closely about the manufacturing firm itself -- Bruckmann in this case -- without considering how one would interact with that firm. A personal favorite sterling pattern of mine was manufactured by the firm of Charles C. Stieff of Baltimore (both he and his firm now long gone), and he was perhaps unique in that business by operating retail shops -- one was located in his factory while others were located in major department stores -- and customers could access his products directly and personally, as well as via their local fine housewares shops. But alas, such services are now a thing of the past, and I agree that most manufacturers do sell their wares via retail jewelers and shops. It may not have even been possible to deal directly with the Bruckmann firm in terms of ordering their products. Yes, a solid point, Chris!

Br. James

**Erich B.** · 09-20-2012, 10:08 AM

Great thread and it's now pinned/stuck. While I don't collect AH silverware per se, I do have a couple of so-called informal pieces. Though they're less ornate, the relative simplicity of the design always appealed to me.
Now, there must be some additional documentation out there!
Erich

**Br. James** · 09-20-2012, 11:48 AM

You've captured the feel of the Informal Pattern exactly, Erich. And thanks for pinning up this thread for the future...very helpful information here!

Br. James

**ErichS** · 09-20-2012, 04:58 PM

I took a couple pics of my very small collection of formal pieces in the hope that others will also share their pieces.

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**Antonio Scapini** · 09-20-2012, 05:34 PM

I follow you Erich...

Formal and informal pattern...

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**Antonio Scapini** · 09-20-2012, 05:35 PM

2

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