AH flatware

[ErichS]

James,

I have no evidence either way but it just makes sense that when Hitler became RK, he would order a silver service, china etc to compliment his high office such as Presidents do here in the US.

[Br. James]

Thanks again, Erich, and I have no reasonable reason to disagree with you. But neither can I point to anything that disagrees with those who have long alluded that at least the AH Formal Pattern service was created and presented to Hitler as a 50th birthday gift. Indeed, there may be a middle ground here; I suppose it would be in keeping with the subject to postulate that Hitler may have indeed gotten the idea to have a special silver service designed for his official/personal use, and followed that thought with a request to Gerdy Troost to put some designs together for him to approve. Once one...or two...designs were approved by Hitler, there was probably a long list of wealthy German industrialists and businesspeople who were just waiting to be called upon to do the Führer a personal favor such as funding the creation of a huge silver service...or two! It probably would have only taken Brückner, Hess, Lammers or Meissner one or at the most two phone calls to make it happen, and the final result could have been graciously received as a present for Hitler's birthday! And whether or not the AH Formal Pattern silver service was arranged in that manner, I have no doubt that countless other "gifts" were arranged for just like that!

But here again we are left with the question of 'why two distinctly different service patterns?' Could the Informal Pattern have been conceived as Hitler's home service (Berghof, Prinzregentenstrasse, train, yacht) while the Formal Pattern seen as the State Service it is occasionally titled (Reichschancellery, Führerbau, other locations such as his FHQs where he would be entertaining diplomatic guests on official business)? Tantalizing questions!

Br. James

[ErichS]

Well we know that many of the formal pieces were found at the Berghof and we know that he entertained guests there as well as in Berlin. IMO, the informal pattern was probably used at the Brown House and at his Munich apartment. With that being said, formal pattern pieces were also found at the BH as well, so who knows?

[Br. James]

To continue that thought, we now know that Hitler in fact entertained high-level guests, both from within Germany and internationally, at all of his private residences as well as on his trains and on his yacht, so perhaps he kept a certain amount of the Formal Pattern service at his private residences to be used when important 'business guests' were present? Since both of the huge services were broken down and apportioned to a number of locations, probably by number of pieces in a place setting (and we don't really know the exact content of what a place setting of either pattern actually included in terms of pieces), one could assume that the Formal or State Service Pattern was predominantly located at the New and Old Reichschancellerys and at the Führerbau, with a smaller number of place settings at the other locations. And since Hitler actually lived at the Old Reichschancellery when in Berlin, there would have been a need for keeping some of the Informal Pattern place settings there, as well. Just conjecture, to be sure, but hopefully based upon the few facts as we know them.

Of course, this does not bring us any closer to understanding why the two service patterns existed to begin with -- unless we are assuming that they represented a need for a formal State Service and a need for a personal, informal service, and that would only be an assumption at this point -- nor are we any closer to knowing how the two services came into being in the first place, whether they were gifts from wealthy admirers or created at Hitler's direct order.

Br. James

[Jon Fish]

How about the thought that the 'formal' pattern was used for state dinners and formal evening entertaining whilst the 'informal' pattern was used for the less formal surroundings of lunchtime/breakfast service?

[Obersalzberg]

Surely isnt it just a case of replacement of old style with new, and that in fact they both served the dame purpose but at earlier and later dates.
My so called informal, compared to my formal look somewhat dated when compared...

[Br. James]

Two solid possibilities, Jon and Obersalzberg, and one might include the other. What we need to have, though, is something tangible that gives us direct period information on these silver services. The only reference I have ever seen was written by Frau Henriette von Schirach in her book, "The Price of Glory" (first published in 1960 in England by Frederick Muller Ltd.). Frau von Schirach reminisced about a dinner invitation to the Reichschancellery which she and her husband, Baldur von Schirach, accepted. Hitler received them in the library of the Old Reichschancellery, and dinner was served in the Winter Garden. “The silver cutlery was engraved with an A and an H, separated by an eagle. Even the brushes and nail-files in the wash-room bore the same inscription. Hitler became angry whenever he was told that a few more of the small engraved coffee spoons were missing – guests were always taking them as souvenirs. I wonder what he would have said, could he have seen the issue of "Stars and Stripes" with a picture showing a beaming American Officer’s wife with his engraved cutlery on her table.” [p.172]

While not published between 1933 and 1945, this vignette is solid proof of the existence and the use of AH flatware at the Old Reichschancellery during the years of the Third Reich...though Frau von Schirach did not include an approximate date of the dinner party she attended with her husband, nor was the date important to her; it was the tale of the silverware that she sought to perpetuate. And thank Goodness for that! Neither does her account state definitively which of the two patterns in question she saw in usage...but again, that wasn't the point, either.

Somehow what I think we need is tangible proof from either the Bruckmann or the Wellner firm -- and I would prefer the former -- as to who ordered these two massive silver services and, if possible, for what occasion, and a copy of an invoice would do quite nicely! Or at least some proof from Atelier Troost (Prof. Gerdy Troost's design studio in Munich) that her firm was asked to work on designs for the monograms for new silver services for Hitler. I realize that I am asking a lot...perhaps for the moon!...but until we have something in the way of hard evidence as to the origin of these patterns, we will always be really in the dark as to why they were created and for what uses.

As a further example of just how obsessive I am about this subject, let me add my own vignette from earlier this year: I happened to notice an article advertising an upcoming fine arts auction published in the UK's "Daily Mail" newspaper on February 23rd; this auction was being held by Dreweatts, a chain of auction houses in a number of British cities. The article referred to a silver serving tray bearing the AH monogram as seen on the Formal Pattern silverware, and the article's author stated that this was a present given to Hitler on his 50th birthday. Nothing new...yet. Further along, the author stated that "The gift -- given by Hitler's chief architect Albert Speer -- capped off a day of celebration for the war-time leader ... The tray was a crowning piece in an array of 3,000 pieces of cutlery ordered by Speer, and is embossed with the Nazi leader's personal German eagle crest and his 'AH' initials." Now that was indeed NEW news, at least to me: Albert Speer's name had never, in my experience, been associated with either of these silver services. But Speer was not only an architect and an interior designer himself, but he worked closely with Gerdy Troost throughout the project which was to be known as the New Reichschancellery. I wanted to know how this tray had become associated with Speer's name. The article disclosed that the auction would be held by Dreweatts, so I looked them up, only to find that there are a number of different locations in various British cities. I looked for anything that might be of help and came up with the name of Mr. Malcolm Claridge, who was associated with fine arts and collectibles at the Dreweatts gallery in Bristol, UK. Their internet listing includes information about contacting "Collectors Sales," and that sounded promising, so I took a chance and sent an email addressed to Mr. Claridge at the Bristol address, asking for any assistance that he could give me on where the information about Albert Speer's connection to the silver tray originated. I assumed that the author of the article in the "Daily Mail" must have gotten that tidbit of information from him... Well, the bottom line is that while my email note didn't bounce back to me, it was never responded to by Mr. Claridge or anyone else at Dreweatts. So in the end, I can add nothing new to our knowledge of these silver patterns!

Very sorry to chunter on so long...but I also won't promise not to do it again! Many thanks for your patience with me.

Br. James

[ErichS]

James,

the Speer connection makes a lot of sense but like you said no evidence has yet to apprear to be sure.

As far as asking Bruckmann or Wellner to look back into their archives will be futile IMO, because when Boker was asked about their production of SS daggers, they said that none were made by them which we know was untrue. Most of the Companies still in business will disavow themselves from anything they made during the TR period.

[bgrelics]

A H Silverware

I did a hotel buy in Toledo Ohio, back in 1991. Had a veteran bring in 80 pieces of AH silverware, most were the informal pattern., salt and pepper shakkers, large AH salad forks, etc ,etc.Also about 10 AH napkins, and AH table cloth.
I have bought AH silverware from about three different veterans, but that was the largest score from one veteran .
I kept a few pieces for myself, but eventually sold all of it.
Thanks
Bob

[Br. James]

Thanks Erich, and I agree. I have also heard of German companies -- as well as French, Austrian and Eastern companies -- who verifiably made things for the Third Reich and yet still persist in 'political correctitude' by denying that they ever cooperated with any form of the National Socialist government. History wills out, though!

I wonder whether Jon Fish or Obersalzberg or any of our other colleagues in the UK might like to try and follow up on the outcome of that auction at Dreweatts earlier this year? Dreweatts might more easily respond to an inquiry originating from a fellow countryman than from overseas -- I say this having not received any response at all to my initial email inquiry. As I said in my last posting, I am not sure whether Mr. Malcolm Claridge was the Dreweatts employee in charge of the auction that included the large Wellner silver serving dish bearing the AH Formal Pattern monogram in its obverse center, but someone at Dreweatts must be able to establish the outcome of that auction and, working in reverse, hopefully provide some information on how the name of Albert Speer got attached to that silver tray. I know we will all be grateful for any new direction such information takes us, even if it only serves to, in fact, eliminate Speer's name from the 'trail!'

Br. James

[ErichS]

Well James, there's one company that can't deny that they made products for the NSDAP and that's Mercedes Benz!

[Richard]

I have also noticed that the informal pattern silverware appears to have much greater wear, theoretically indicating more usage, than the formal pattern pieces. This may indicate a longer period of use prior to the introduction of the formal pattern or just more usage since informal meals probably were much more common than formal ones.

Regarding the auction house and the association with Speer, though it makes some sense, it would not be the first time a description contained inaccuracies for an auction lot being offered. Perhaps Mr. Claridge has no definitive documentation to the tie with Speer and therefore is a bit reluctant to respond?
Richard V

[Br. James]

Right you are, Erich!! And another is Volkswagen...though it known in DAF and wider circles as the 'KdF Wagen' during Nazi times! I wonder if any of those many thousands of German workers who had monthly payroll deductions toward the building of the Wolfsburg KdF factory -- and therefore the promise of a brand new car when the factory was completed -- ever got any degree of compensation after the war? Like so many others, they surely deserved it.

Br. James

[Br. James]

Thanks for your input, Richard...though I do not share your experience of noticing that, in general, pieces in the Informal Pattern appear to be more worn than those in the Formal Pattern. I recall that, early on, it was thought that pieces in what we now refer to as the Informal Pattern were simply harder used pieces of the Formal Pattern, but that opinion fairly quickly was set aside when examining numerous pieces of both patterns together. I think that individual pieces in the Informal Pattern tend to show wear more easily than the Formal, given the smooth, sleek design of the Informal -- a design feature that I find quite appealing! The more complicated and angular Greek Key border design of the Formal Pattern provides less smooth surface that can receive scratches and dings from normal wear, washing and polishing, but comparing the blades of both patterns, I have not noticed that the Informal shows more wear than the Formal.

That being said, if it's true that there were three times as many pieces made in the Formal Pattern as the Informal, and if it's also true that the Informal Pattern was used in Hitler's homes and private dining rooms over against large dinner and banquet use of a formal State Service, then I would imagine that pieces in the Informal Pattern might have gotten more individual use than comparable pieces in the Formal Pattern. But those are only suppositions based upon our real lack of hard information about these two silverware sets, how they were used, and how they were distributed for use.

I certainly agree with you that auction houses -- just like collectors -- get things wrong from time to time, and in the case of auction houses, those times are the best times for us collectors to bid!! I believe that auction houses -- and indeed the more high-end and specialized houses -- keep expert staffs employed in order to discern what pieces really are and what they are really worth. But even in such cases, the information provided by the seller also plays a hand into how a piece is advertised, and whenever a piece comes in with little confirmable known background -- a piece like the Wellner silver tray in the AH Formal Pattern -- I would imagine that the auction house is happy to take the word of the seller as to value and provenance. That is why I tried to get a response from the Dreweatts firm as to the source of the information they advertised. Now, just as you said, if Dreweatts was counting on using advertising from high-profile names such as Adolf Hitler and Albert Speer -- though without solid provenance -- then my inquiry would have cast a spotlight on their plan! And this might have resulted in the lack of response I received to my email note. Of course this is only a supposition; I have no further information as to why Dreweatts did not respond to my note, nor were they under any obligation to do so. But it would have been very helpful to us if their agent had provided me with some sort of proof or statement that, in fact, Albert Speer was the impetus behind the silverware project; that he heard Hitler speak of wanting such silver services and went to his colleague, Prof. Gerdy Troost, and had her work on designs; and also went out to one or two manufacturers with deep pockets who owed him favors to promote the funding of this project. If we could establish a scenario like that, I think all of our efforts would be fulfilled! But that is not how it played out, at least not yet. And that is why I suggested that someone among us in London or the UK might have better success in pursuing this matter with Dreweatts. I do hope someone picks up the ball and runs with it...for the benefit of us all!

Br. James

[Obersalzberg]

Right you are, Erich!! And another is Volkswagen...though it known in DAF and wider circles as the 'KdF Wagen' during Nazi times! I wonder if any of those many thousands of German workers who had monthly payroll deductions toward the building of the Wolfsburg KdF factory -- and therefore the promise of a brand new car when the factory was completed -- ever got any degree of compensation after the war? Like so many others, they surely deserved it.

Br. James

I read that Vw, under German ownership did honour the stamps for a given period of time.