AH flatware

[Br. James]

Fantastic, Brent...makes me drool!

Br. James

[fredyfang]

Hello my Friends,

What's new? Do you have new pieces? Were you in Kassel?
I was in Kassel, but unfortunately found nothing. " i can Safe some Money "

Sincerely
Fredy

[Knight_ridergta]

None here but there is a nice AH napkin on the E-Stand!

Hello my Friends,

What's new? Do you have new pieces? Were you in Kassel?
I was in Kassel, but unfortunately found nothing. " i can Safe some Money "

Sincerely
Fredy

[Bob Hritz]

There seems to be so much of this AH silver that I often wonder how much was made and where was it all used.

Bob Hritz

[Richard]

There seems to be so much of this AH silver that I often wonder how much was made and where was it all used.

Bob Hritz

Bob, if this, indeed, is a formal pattern used for state dinners and official meals, I can but imagine there must be quite a few. Reviewing some of the more formal occasion dinners that were held for visiting dignitaries I would imagine it not to be too far fetched to see 40 or more people in attendance. This would mean there would be at least that many of each utensil used for each place setting available anywhere a formal state dinner might be held. Finding an specific piece, such as a salad fork, might prove difficult if only 200 or so exist. Finding an example of any type of utensil which might have been at one of the place settings would not be that difficult as each place setting probably had at least 7 utensils (7 X 200 = 1400) making such a search much more likely to achieve success. The serving pieces would be the great rarities as there probably were only a few for every 20 or 30 place settings.
Richard V

[fredyfang]

Bob, if this, indeed, is a formal pattern used for state dinners and official meals, I can but imagine there must be quite a few. Reviewing some of the more formal occasion dinners that were held for visiting dignitaries I would imagine it not to be too far fetched to see 40 or more people in attendance. This would mean there would be at least that many of each utensil used for each place setting available anywhere a formal state dinner might be held. Finding an specific piece, such as a salad fork, might prove difficult if only 200 or so exist. Finding an example of any type of utensil which might have been at one of the place settings would not be that difficult as each place setting probably had at least 7 utensils (7 X 200 = 1400) making such a search much more likely to achieve success. The serving pieces would be the great rarities as there probably were only a few for every 20 or 30 place settings.
Richard V

Hi Richard,

You are almost Korekt, These became 2x 600 pices
with Serving pices delivered.
The whot the shipping requirement in 1938.
However, the became 3 times a nother Delivedy in the War years. " ca. 1000" Pices.

mfg
fredy

[fredyfang]

And today I must not work. Than i can hang out in the WAF and to eat

[Eric Von Rader]

I believe there is documented evidence that the silverware was presented to AH for his 50th birthday as a gift.

The believed following quantities are as follows. (but I do not have the specific documentation) Per Mark Griffiths book; "Liberated AH Memorabilia"

x3 sets of Formal Silverware each set contained approx 1000 single pieces (including serving examples). Total 3000

x1 set of informal silverware. @ 1000 total.

The informal is MUCH rarer and typically has more signs of usage. The formal examples tend to be much cleaner some even unused. Also after the war many examples were melted down after the war. We have seen evidence of people cutting/hacking off the eagles and tossing them as metal detectors have found this to be the case @ the Berchtesgaden area.

[Br. James]

Hi Eric,

While I have no wish to argue on any point here, I must point out that, to my knowledge, there is a vast difference between what has been received in our hobby as "legend and tradition" and what we have seen by documented evidence. For decades the "legend and tradition" has been that what we call the "AH Formal Pattern" silverware was created as a gift for Hitler for his 50th birthday in 1939; that what we call the "AH Informal Pattern" silverware was created, either at Hitler's command or by other initiation, as some sort of a silver service to be used at either luncheons (this would seem to be negated by that fact that the "AH Formal Pattern" also includes so-called "luncheon" pieces) or at some of the residential locations where the Formal Pattern would not be appropriate to use; and that there were originally 3,000 pieces of the Formal Pattern and 1,000 pieces of the Informal Pattern created. None of these legends can be documented by paperwork from either of the two main manufacturers of these silver pieces -- the firms of P. Bruckmann & Sons and August Wellner’s Sons -- and the only extant documentation is through an inventory list written by a Munich silver and goldsmith, F.H. Wani, dated in July of 1938 (nine months prior to Hitler's 50th birthdate) and bearing a title of "Re: Silver Delivery to the Kehlstein Teahouse," itemizing 750 pieces of silver tableware ordered by Hitler's architect, Prof. Roderick Fick. No mention is made in this document of which silver pattern these 750 pieces were cast in, so it is anybody's guess whether these were Formal or Informal pieces. Post-war provenance has stated that pieces of both the AH Formal and AH Informal Pattern were found at the Kehlsteinhaus, and also at the Berghof and probably at the Teahouse and at the Reichschancellery Annex located outside of Berchtesgaden, as well as in Berlin and several other locations. From this inventory list, all we can know is that the architect of the Berghof and the Kehlsteinhaus ordered 750 pieces of silverware to be delivered to the Kehlsteinhaus during the summer of 1938, and nothing more than that. We might assume that silverware was ordered separately for Hitler's other locations -- the Old and New Reichschancellery, the Führerbau, his apartment on the Prinzregentensplatz, his train and yacht, and at the Wolfschanze, where pieces of his silverware have been known to have been found after the war, but that is only a guess loosely based upon scant knowledge.

Perhaps one day we will know more than we do now, but this is the way I see where we are today. Cheers,

Br. James

[Erich B.]

Agree with you, James. It would be interesting to know when and from what source(s) this silverware collector lore originated.
Erich

[Br. James]

Hi friends,

FYI -- The catalog for the upcoming auction by Mohawk Arms (December 6-7) offers several pieces of AH Formal Pattern silverware in addition to an AH Informal Pattern silver ladle and silver pieces from a number of of other TR dignitaries.

Br. James

[Br. James]

Thanks, Erich. For as long as I can recall reading about such things as AH silverware, these legends have been a constant, taken as if they were Gospel truth! But none of those dealers or writers on this subject who offer these legends as background information in their books or on their websites -- and here we all have noticed many of the most well-known and respected dealers quoting those figures as if everyone knew exactly where they came from! -- but after closer inspection, no one establishes where or when those figures originated! For myself, I cannot doubt that both the AH Formal and Informal Pattern pieces existed from the evidence of what the soldiers brought home in 1945, but what no one seems to be able to establish as hard truth are the figures of 3,000 Formal and 1,000 Informal pieces being made, and that at least the Formal Pattern was created as a gift for Hitler's 50th birthday. Indeed, you would think that anyone who had given such a huge and magnificent gift to Hitler would have found ways to take credit for it over the years...NO?!?! And yet we never hear who gave this gift. Perhaps it will remain a mystery forever...?

Br. James

[fredyfang]

HI James,

you are for sure right in some Points. But i had last yeahr a look in AH reduction and get to know some intesting personl from the BND.
The Told my " 2x 600 pices what the no " that the Formal Pattern was a present for AH . Bot i was not a big deal.
He has seen the pieces before they order them.
They Plant to use The Formal Pattern Pices everywhere bot not in the The Kehlsteinhaus. AH decide to have some Real Privet Pices " Formal Pattern ".
He wanted to yous those just in the Kehlsteinhaus. Thats wy thy did not Produced so many.

but in the time before War ending , the Americans found in the Obersalsberg, a lot of stuff because the tried to hide all ther things in the area. Thats why Veterens tell where the found some Formal Pattern idams ther.


I hop you guys can read my bad English.


mfg.
fredy

[Eric Von Rader]

Just going off my collecting experiences and looking for examples at every show+ Internet, IMO the alleged production numbers stated seem to be high. I mean really how often do we see the silverware up for sale? Especially the "informal" examples. If you think about 3k examples of silverware! WOW that's a ton of forks, knives, spoons!

There was also the true story of the WW2 Vet and his wife that would set up at the Early MAX shows with a chest of AH formal silverware. He had and entire "set" including tea pots, warming plates, etc etc. He obtain the entire hoard from one site. He was asking 10k for the entire group and would not separate the group. 10k was a TON of $$ back 20+ years ago. My friend stated he thought there was several hundred silverware examples in the chest, (including serving examples)

I also like to reiterate the "informal" examples I have seen and owned show MUCH more wear. My conclusion is the "informal" was less produced and used more often than the "formal" silverware.

FYI the informal ladle @ Mohawk Arms sold for $1900.00+17% auction fees ($2225.00)

[Br. James]

Many thanks to Eric Von Rader for the story of a vet offering a chest full of AH silverware for sale at some of the early MAX Shows; who knows, perhaps Tom Wittmann and Tom Johnson bought the whole lot and have been dribbling them out over the years?! Good to know how much the Informal Pattern ladle went for at this past weekend's Mohawk Arms auction, though there were also about ten other pieces in that auction, mostly the Formal Pattern. While 3k pieces of the Formal Pattern and 1k examples of the Informal Pattern seem like a lot of silverware, this one Mohawk Auction alone counts for several pieces and we all know that there are MANY more in long-standing collections around the world. So, to me, those figures are at least in the realm of possibility.

Thanks, too, to Fredy for his further input...though there is only conjecture there, and we have plenty of that going around already. What we need is some further hard facts, such as documents like the inventory from 1938 by Munich jeweler F.H. Wani, or similar orders placed with other jewelers for large numbers of silver pieces to be delivered to other locations/residences, or information from the firm of P. Bruckmann & Sons itself, recording how many pieces of these patterns were actually cast over the years.

Br. James