A couple of Cultural items

[oldflagswanted]

unknown organizational symbol ???

...You may not have those books but I do. I have and have had quite a few
NSDAP/Nazi publications ...the runic craze that may have been at its height
during the TR ...everybody was in uniform and familiar with runes, flags, ...

kw2:
Do any of your books show this upside down Venus or Mars
cosmic or runic like symbol? Flag color, material, construction
does appear much like my SS Lager flag, and is maker marked
to Bonner Fahnenfabrik Bonn a. Rhein. But that maker says all
of their WW2 production records where destroyed in the war.

PS/ While doing this post I'm watching on TV "Curse of the Demon (1957) - my
favorite line: "Runic symbols are supposed to have magic powers, they don't".
Movie trailer online at ---> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCp-c_buFlw

[Michael Fay]

pagan motifs are not proof of tapestries authenticity

Also the examples Don is sharing I never touched nor offered them to anybody - just because they are not pagan and therefore cannot be related to the production range of DHW in any way.

I only hunted the pagan patterns and hunted also for as much as original DHW booklets and documents I could get my hands on - because I wanted evidence for my pieces, as far as possible at least.

ALL the tapestries which I sold here in the E-stand were and actually are attached with this doubtless evidence - and if not I said so!

.

Since you wanted to see more from this catalog so badly,
here is one for you. It is named "Rune" in the catalog.

Since you know so little, you may not know this "rune" motif has the Life tree in it in it's linear runic form . So it is doubly pagan, not even counting the other symbols. the problem here is this tapestry design is post war.

So much for "pagan" motifs being your ultimate proof of authenticity.
Do you just make up your "expert" advice?

[Michael Fay]

kw2:
Do any of your books show this upside down Venus or Mars
cosmic or runic like symbol? Flag color, material, construction
does appear much like my SS Lager flag, and is maker marked
to Bonner Fahnenfabrik Bonn a. Rhein. But that maker says all
of their WW2 production records where destroyed in the war.

I remember you sharing this before....
I cant help you specifically. But the nazis were the heirs of the turn of the century new age movement in Germany. As such astrology among much other "occult/pagan" things were highly popular...maybe more popular than anywhere else in that time frame.
I might guess this flag was made before the 'Aktion Hess' order of june 6-7, 1941 when astrologers and fortune tellers, among others were outlawed. another instruction of june 24, 1941 issued that public performances were not allowed if they involved demonstrations of occult, astrological , etc .

So if that symbol is indeed an old astrological symbol for a planet (looks like Venus to me)....it probably was put away after these dates as I would imagine that flying that flag could be considered "a public performance."

[Thorsten B.]

Michael and Steve,

thank you both fo sharing these enlightening pics and infos.

I had not noticed that sweet little "Rune"-pillow before - for me it looks clearly postwar as well since it´s whole appearance reminds me of the funky space age design of the 60ties and early 70ties - nothing classical at all.

I totally agree with Steve´s observations and indeed the shown piece is a curtain as well as Michael´s example is - one just has to see the bottom of these pieces made in that way to protect the stuff from defibration while opening and closing the window and moving the bottom of the curtain to left and right over the floor or carpeted floor.

[Steve T]

Michael and Steve,

thank you both fo sharing these enlightening pics and infos.

I had not noticed that sweet little "Rune"-pillow before - for me it looks clearly postwar as well since it´s whole appearance reminds me of the funky space age design of the 60ties and early 70ties - nothing classical at all.

I totally agree with Steve´s observations and indeed the shown piece is a curtain as well as Michael´s example is - one just has to see the bottom of these pieces made in that way to protect the stuff from defibration while opening and closing the window and moving the bottom of the curtain to left and right over the floor or carpeted floor.

I've made observations on the fading which is very faded on the reverse as if it has seen much more light, as if hung against a window. I don't know of any documentation that specifically shows such a piece used as a curtain.

Thinking about your comment about the bottom being finished so as not to wear on a floor, I don't specifically agree with that at this time. I can't actually think of any tapestry where the cotton pattern of the weave extends to the bottom edge, tapestries always have either a band of either the warp wool weft or they are finished with a fringe so in this respect it is no different to any other tapestry.

The fading suggests it was used as if it were a curtain, but on further thought the banding I also noted would be not I think be consistent with the pole through the top hemmed area. You would need a supported section and then an unsupported section to create a wide band but with continuous support of a pole through the hem, this would not be possible as the fabric would just bunch up. If it were against a window, then the frame of the window may have also shaded some areas and not others.

So a curtain or a wall hanging that was hung in front of a window, who knows, and does it matter. Another one could come along and show a completely different wear and fade pattern and suggest a different use.

It was very nice of the collector to share this piece. I was asked by him whether I think its a curtain or a wall hanging. I will say this to him, there is no documentation I'm aware of that specifically shows this design was meant to be a curtain. Its fading pattern suggests this piece saw more light on its reverse, possibly from use in front of a window, but for me until such evidence comes comes along to suggest otherwise it is a Beiderwand Wall Hanging.

Now if anyone does have any clear documented evidence to a view contrary to my current thoughts and can show us here that its a curtain then that's great, it will be good to see but as of right now I'm quite happy to think of it as a wall hanging and for me the curtain, not curtain debate is over.

[Minnesinger]

kw2:
Do any of your books show this upside down Venus or Mars
cosmic or runic like symbol? Flag color, material, construction
does appear much like my SS Lager flag, and is maker marked
to Bonner Fahnenfabrik Bonn a. Rhein. But that maker says all
of their WW2 production records where destroyed in the war.

PS/ While doing this post I'm watching on TV "Curse of the Demon (1957) - my
favorite line: "Runic symbols are supposed to have magic powers, they don't".
Movie trailer online at ---> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCp-c_buFlw

Another theory I have about it is that it is a stylized Reichsapfel (Globus Cruciger). It has history in at least Austria and Preußen. Perhaps it is used in a citys weapon as it does apear in heraldic shields as well.

[Thorsten B.]

Due to the spade it could also be a flag of a regional unit of the FAD = Freiwilliger Arbeitsdienst, the name of the organisation before re-named in 1935 to RAD = Reichsarbeitsdienst.

Another possibility is that it´s background is a catholic one - many catholic scouts or workers had such banners between the wars until they were banned by the Third Reich government.

[Steve T]

Here's a monster of a plate!

It's suffered a little and so thought about trying to effect a better repair but decided against it and instead I'll just dust it off and give it a coat of beeswax.

[ETN]

kw2:
Do any of your books show this upside down Venus or Mars
cosmic or runic like symbol? Flag color, material, construction
does appear much like my SS Lager flag, and is maker marked
to Bonner Fahnenfabrik Bonn a. Rhein. But that maker says all
of their WW2 production records where destroyed in the war.

PS/ While doing this post I'm watching on TV "Curse of the Demon (1957) - my
favorite line: "Runic symbols are supposed to have magic powers, they don't".
Movie trailer online at ---> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCp-c_buFlw

The Blue Oyster Cult Arbeitsdienst flag?

[JoeW]

I've made observations on the fading which is very faded on the reverse as if it has seen much more light, as if hung against a window. I don't know of any documentation that specifically shows such a piece used as a curtain.

Thinking about your comment about the bottom being finished so as not to wear on a floor, I don't specifically agree with that at this time. I can't actually think of any tapestry where the cotton pattern of the weave extends to the bottom edge, tapestries always have either a band of either the warp wool weft or they are finished with a fringe so in this respect it is no different to any other tapestry.

The fading suggests it was used as if it were a curtain, but on further thought the banding I also noted would be not I think be consistent with the pole through the top hemmed area. You would need a supported section and then an unsupported section to create a wide band but with continuous support of a pole through the hem, this would not be possible as the fabric would just bunch up. If it were against a window, then the frame of the window may have also shaded some areas and not others.

So a curtain or a wall hanging that was hung in front of a window, who knows, and does it matter. Another one could come along and show a completely different wear and fade pattern and suggest a different use.

It was very nice of the collector to share this piece. I was asked by him whether I think its a curtain or a wall hanging. I will say this to him, there is no documentation I'm aware of that specifically shows this design was meant to be a curtain. Its fading pattern suggests this piece saw more light on its reverse, possibly from use in front of a window, but for me until such evidence comes comes along to suggest otherwise it is a Beiderwand Wall Hanging.

Now if anyone does have any clear documented evidence to a view contrary to my current thoughts and can show us here that its a curtain then that's great, it will be good to see but as of right now I'm quite happy to think of it as a wall hanging and for me the curtain, not curtain debate is over.

Steve, I must commend you on your observations of the teppich from the German collector. But you must forget earlier postings, as I posted almost an identical teppich at #1068 last week. This I purchased at auction in 2006 for the pricely sum of Eur 99,-.



And like the one you posted, I noted damage by sunlight. I posted photos of the weave with a ruler nearby also. But I didn't post a photo of the reverse, as you did, wherein the pattern of fading is quite evident. Likewise is the pattern evident on my example of this Birkhaehne pattern. I can only conclude that at one time both the example you posted and mine were mounted together.

But with the ability to examine closely the hem line at the top, the crude nature of the sewing job (red thread bobbin), I must conclude that in the last period of its sevice, these teppich served ingloriously as some type of window covering. You can notice the darkened area at the top of the one from the German collector (is it Henning by the way?). This would be from dirt or oil form hands pushing the hung teppich into a gathered bunch at the side of the window. Mine has a similar dirt mark. But from the lack of total destruction from the sun that would have resulted from seven decades of use as a window covering, one must conclude that it was only over the past perhaps twenty years or so that the owner of these teppiches used them so crudely. They obviously started life as table or wall coverings.

It must have been a popular pattern, as we have the one shown by your anonymous collector, mine, Michael's and another shown on the GD.com forum in 2004 or so.

[Steve T]

Steve, I must commend you on your observations of the teppich from the German collector. But you must forget earlier postings, as I posted almost an identical teppich at #1068 last week. This I purchased at auction in 2006 for the pricely sum of Eur 99,-.

And like the one you posted, I noted damage by sunlight. I posted photos of the weave with a ruler nearby also. But I didn't post a photo of the reverse, as you did, wherein the pattern of fading is quite evident. Likewise is the pattern evident on my example of this Birkhaehne pattern. I can only conclude that at one time both the example you posted and mine were mounted together.

But with the ability to examine closely the hem line at the top, the crude nature of the sewing job (red thread bobbin), I must conclude that in the last period of its sevice, these teppich served ingloriously as some type of window covering. You can notice the darkened area at the top of the one from the German collector (is it Henning by the way?). This would be from dirt or oil form hands pushing the hung teppich into a gathered bunch at the side of the window. Mine has a similar dirt mark. But from the lack of total destruction from the sun that would have resulted from seven decades of use as a window covering, one must conclude that it was only over the past perhaps twenty years or so that the owner of these teppiches used them so crudely. They obviously started life as table or wall coverings.

It must have been a popular pattern, as we have the one shown by your anonymous collector, mine, Michael's and another shown on the GD.com forum in 2004 or so.

Joe,

Sorry, I did indeed forget you posted one a little while back, if I had remembered I could have asked you too for the detailed reverse picture!

I don't know where the example I posted came from originally. Its not with Henning now. I wonder if they were a 'pair' at one time. I have many more pictures of it so it may be possible to work it out from the hem. (Edit) Here you go, and it is crudely sewn in red, see picture. Thanks for pointing out this part of the piece in detail, for me this is also more reason to make me think it was a wall hanging, as you indeed conclude in your post.

I appreciate you reminding me and its nice to see it again

[Thorsten B.]

As I said they all were and are curtains - all the time.

A whole old household was cleared and there were at least two couples but I think more - they were all sold on german Ebay.

And since they were clearly described as curtains when being offered I did not buy them - because I am interested in wall tapestries.

[Steve T]

Here's a monster of a plate!

It's suffered a little and so thought about trying to effect a better repair but decided against it and instead I'll just dust it off and give it a coat of beeswax.

After a brush off and a wax.

[JoeW]

As I said they all were and are curtains - all the time.

A whole old household was cleared and there were at least two couples but I think more - they were all sold on german Ebay.

And since they were clearly described as curtains when being offered I did not buy them - because I am interested in wall tapestries.

Oh Thorsten, get a life! If I didn't know better, I would guess you to be an interior decorator.

Did you see it on German EBay? Well mine wasn't purchased from Ebay back in 2006. And it was advertised as an SS Teppich by someone who had the experience to realize what the item was, as opposed to how it was being mis-used at the time. Apparently you missed the boat.

[Thorsten B.]

A life like this you mean?