A couple of Cultural items

[Etienne B.]

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the clues.I have studied the piece carefully and there are no traces left of a label .I only found two support threads just like as in your piece.They go from the bottom to the top of the piece across each other.
That particular thread has another colour but is certainly not nylon.
I have made a scan to get a clear view.

[Michael Fay]

research on rug pattern's actual names and their modern production

I'm not taking any stance, all I said was the name Bernward, a coincidence perhaps that there is a St. Bernward.

Yes, of course Christianity borrows designs from other cultures, Christian or not, that is fact.

I merely told you the pattern name and yes, it is a fact, I checked my notes. Does this mean its Christian for a fact? No it doesn't. Did I say its Christian? No. Have I suggested it's pagan? No. Did I say its from the 1930's? No. You're guessing I'm saying its from the 1930's, well I've not said that it is, but my guess would be that it's very likely from the around 1920/30/40 something like that.

You said its time for people to do their own research and I agree with you, I always have. All I did was tell you the name of it, something I thought you might like to know as you have one. I was curious of the name because its the name of a Bishop.

In the spirit of "doing research:"
-- someone ( a European collector who does not share on WAF for the "good reasons" stated previously) gave me some help with their own research and so : the pattern on my old teppich rug or drape is not named "Bernward." At least not on this catalog.
Apparently it is instead a pattern by the name of : #3022 Birkhahne {umlaut on the "a"} "Black Grouse." Be it pagan, Christian or neither...it is not Bernward.
But one thing is for sure; this pattern was offered way past the TR era (catalogue of the Meldorfer Weberei) and especially was sold as a "beloved little pillow" as the catalog clearly shows.

Finally :much thanks to all those European collectors who help me out with information in these situations.
We all need to get the truth out .
Without it, no one on WAF (other than those who claim to have always known this--yet remained silent) would be aware of the modern rugs still to this moment.

[Steve T]

In the spirit of "doing research:"
-- someone ( a European collector who does not share on WAF for the "good reasons" stated previously) gave me some help with their own research and so : the pattern on my old teppich rug or drape is not named "Bernward." At least not on this catalog.
Apparently it is instead a pattern by the name of : #3022 Birkhahne {umlaut on the "a"} "Black Grouse." Be it pagan, Christian or neither...it is not Bernward.
But one thing is for sure; this pattern was offered way past the TR era (catalogue of the Meldorfer Weberei) and especially was sold as a "beloved little pillow" as the catalog clearly shows.

Finally :much thanks to all those European collectors who help me out with information in these situations.
We all need to get the truth out .
Without it, no one on WAF (other than those who claim to have always known this--yet remained silent) would be aware of the modern rugs still to this moment.

Thats the weberei out of business, another weberei, such as the one in still existence that probably made Thorsten's cushion, it looks like the one in the picture Minnsinger posted, may well not use the pattern name from the Kunstweberei.

[ErichS]

Michael, this the reason that I stay away from these tapistries.

[Steve T]

Michael,

Can you show a detailed picture of the reverse of your tapestry so we can see the weave pattern? A shot like mine in post 1207 would be good. Thanks.

[Capt. R]

In the spirit of "doing research:"
-- someone ( a European collector who does not share on WAF for the "good reasons" stated previously) gave me some help with their own research and so : the pattern on my old teppich rug or drape is not named "Bernward." At least not on this catalog.
Apparently it is instead a pattern by the name of : #3022 Birkhahne {umlaut on the "a"} "Black Grouse." Be it pagan, Christian or neither...it is not Bernward.
But one thing is for sure; this pattern was offered way past the TR era (catalogue of the Meldorfer Weberei) and especially was sold as a "beloved little pillow" as the catalog clearly shows.

Finally :much thanks to all those European collectors who help me out with information in these situations.
We all need to get the truth out .
Without it, no one on WAF (other than those who claim to have always known this--yet remained silent) would be aware of the modern rugs still to this moment.

Thanks for bringing the light of day onto this Michael. Can you ask if the large tree of life patterns appear in these catalogs, please? and maybe a photo if found therein.

[ETN]

Michael, this the reason that I stay away from these tapistries.

ditto

[Michael Fay]

sure, after you state up front what you are looking for

Michael,

Can you show a detailed picture of the reverse of your tapestry so we can see the weave pattern? A shot like mine in post 1207 would be good. Thanks.

Well sure, but I am not argueing it is authentic TR era or not... I just dont have any dog in that fight anymore as this thread has taught us that they are all under suspicion!

As I seem to remember I got shots for you before over and over on the candle holder and as far as I am concerned you kept changing the goals on me: moving the perameters of what were your specifications for deciding what was a fake or not. Each time i supplied new photos addressing the latest critique then you just created a new critique .
I dont feel like playing that game, if you dont mind.

So now it wont be that way:
You specify up front and ahead of time exactly what you think you are looking for in photos of the back of my rug.
And what those things will supposedly enlighten us with.

Is that not fair?

So why dont you state your specifications up front? and I will go charge up my rechargable batteries for the digital camera, and then go and take the old rug out of storage , and drag a bunch of lighting equipment around all just for you.

--so why dont you enlighten me as to what you are looking for that will lean us one way or the other? Or is that not your point and you just want to see if you can tell which textile company made it?

And like i said, I just dont care anymore about teppiches...they are poisoned in my estimation.
But I wont play any games simply on principal.

[Michael Fay]

Thanks for bringing the light of day onto this Michael. Can you ask if the large tree of life patterns appear in these catalogs, please? and maybe a photo if found therein.

Well...none of the other images sent to me from that Weberei textile maker had anything called specifically the tree of life.
But this brings me to a point i have been meaning to bring up here on WAF.

From my own research, it has long been the case that the tree of life motif is used everywhere.
It is found in Babylonian stelae carvings
It is a symbol used in rugs 1000/2000 years ago in Afganistan and Persian rugs!.
The tree of Life in multivarious variant stylizations was and is still employed to this day by companies and pattern designers who in all likelihood have no idea or interest in that it is the tree of life design.
In fact the christian cross was also applied into the traditional tree of life symbol ....it is a variation of the tree of life symbol.

I even have scholarly work by nazi influenced professor who cites Hermann Wirth while drawing attention to the ancient Eastern tree of life to the Germanic tree of life as being related.
In short...the tree of life pattern is no real assurance of having a TR era teppich.
The pagan tree of life pattern is also related to monotheistic Christain and Islamic inspired patterns on rugs.

[Minnesinger]

In the spirit of "doing research:"
-- someone ( a European collector who does not share on WAF for the "good reasons" stated previously) gave me some help with their own research and so : the pattern on my old teppich rug or drape is not named "Bernward." At least not on this catalog.
Apparently it is instead a pattern by the name of : #3022 Birkhahne {umlaut on the "a"} "Black Grouse." Be it pagan, Christian or neither...it is not Bernward.
But one thing is for sure; this pattern was offered way past the TR era (catalogue of the Meldorfer Weberei) and especially was sold as a "beloved little pillow" as the catalog clearly shows.

Finally :much thanks to all those European collectors who help me out with information in these situations.
We all need to get the truth out .
Without it, no one on WAF (other than those who claim to have always known this--yet remained silent) would be aware of the modern rugs still to this moment.

Nice work there with the catalog. That is exactly what I was hoping to dig up my self and post.

[Thorsten B.]

Yes - thanks for sharing, Michael.

I assume that catalog consists of more than just this one page - if so: can you share the complete catalog with us?

[Minnesinger]

I have gone over mine and found no threads that should not be there. It is composed of the red yarn and black and white threads.

I did not expect to find any but checked anyways. Since I picked it up myself as a private purchase and not from a militariadealer there was no need for the seller to make up a cool story or add to it's years.

[Minnesinger]

Some close-up photos.

[Steve T]

I have gone over mine and found no threads that should not be there. It is composed of the red yarn and black and white threads.

I did not expect to find any but checked anyways. Since I picked it up myself as a private purchase and not from a militariadealer there was no need for the seller to make up a cool story or add to it's years.

Nice pictures of a great tapestry Minnesinger! Yes, its nice to be able to get as close to the original buyer when finding these things, its one reason I especially like my two landscape pieces, knowing they came from the family who bought them originally.

The construction of the weave to me looks typical of the style from the Museum Workshops Weberei (MW), not a style I've seen shown so far at least, from the Kunstweberei (KW) that we see the catalogue of above. Your piece has construction you can see in my old brown Tree of Life I've shown here.

I recently purchased two more modern pieces to inspect which have arrived today, sourced second hand, one having be used and the other not, and both from the MW. When time permits I shall post some detailed pictures.

A question for you, looking at the reverse, how many of the triple thread warp threads do you get per 10cm on your piece? See below.

[Minnesinger]

Nice pictures of a great tapestry Minnesinger! Yes, its nice to be able to get as close to the original buyer when finding these things, its one reason I especially like my two landscape pieces, knowing they came from the family who bought them originally.

The construction of the weave to me looks typical of the style from the Museum Workshops Weberei (MW), not a style I've seen shown so far at least, from the Kunstweberei (KW) that we see the catalogue of above. Your piece has construction you can see in my old brown Tree of Life I've shown here.

I recently purchased two more modern pieces to inspect which have arrived today, sourced second hand, one having be used and the other not, and both from the MW. When time permits I shall post some detailed pictures.

A question for you, looking at the reverse, how many of the triple thread warp threads do you get per 10cm on your piece? See below.

Thank you.

I count 40. However I think my warp is a bit different. It's not as exact and "tight" as yours, however it might be due to wear or photo?