A couple of Cultural items

[Steve T]

So ,you did not state my rug is a Christian based motif.
Thank you for the re-clarification. It appeared to some that you had, as exemplified by thorsten's citing you with this erroneous statement.
Or didnt you notice.

No Michael, I did not say its a Christian motive. Yes I did notice it was cited and to be fair I also notice you called a pillow Christian too. You suspect European collectors do not participate in discussion here and maybe this is one example of why they don't, whatever they may say be taken and used in battles with other members. It's a pity that many more don't participate but I'm sure they have their own good reasons for why they don't.

[Michael Fay]

lets get very clear

No Michael, I did not say its a Christian motive. Yes I did notice it was cited and to be fair I also notice you called a pillow Christian too. You suspect European collectors do not participate in discussion here and maybe this is one example of why they don't, whatever they may say be taken and used in battles with other members. It's a pity that many more don't participate but I'm sure they have their own good reasons for why they don't.

NO, I pointed out that if MY rug is "Christian" as he claimed, then his pillow symbology must also be "Christian." as it is the same......and I am still waiting for a reply to this.
I had to point this out as you had been too vague in your comments for me to defend myself against what he claimed you had stated as fact. How could I argue what you really meant when I did not know what you really meant?
I am sure you would have been very quick to say I was wrong, if I had not stated what you really meant, correctly.

As to my so called "suspicions" I dont "suspect" anything. I know for a direct and very clear fact.I have been told by those I am talking about. I have had way too many private emails from European (and a few UK) collectors telling me about how they stay away from here for my previously stated reasons. Why do they tell me? --- I think we all know why.
But if you need me to be clearer, then just ask-that is what this forum is for.
A clear and direct exchange of information be they facts , theories and sadly, overt lies.

As for the good reasons to not participate: it is one member, and it is bad for the health of WAF.
For example, no one on WAF pointed out the rugs were made after the war, in the 70's and even now.---RIGHT NOW.
While you apparently already knew that, it seems no one was sharing this with the rest of the forum. I was told in private, and I immediatly shared this.
We need a few members who are willing to tell the truth, even if that is uncomfortable.
Sometimes feigned neutrality is not really neutral.

[Capt. R]

another similar pattern in blue but likely a modern example

[Capt. R]

more modern examples

makes me wonder if a conspiracy of people in the know about these post-war items was afoot

[Capt. R]

more junk

[Capt. R]

these are obviously post-war and easily recognized as such. harder to tell are the big tree of life patterns in all wool. No way of telling unless someone digs up a catalog of products...I hope someone does soon!

[Jack83]

these are obviously post-war and easily recognized as such. harder to tell are the big tree of life patterns in all wool. No way of telling unless someone digs up a catalog of products...I hope someone does soon!

While I'm far from an expect, I can often tell by touch, feel, and smell if an item has some significant age to it.

Certainly, this is in no way an exact science, especially if something was made in say the 50's-70's.

I would think that this area should be taken with the proverbial "grain of salt". It is an entirely reasonable conclusion that some DHW patterns continued production post war. It is also reasonable to conclude that at the end and in the immediate aftermath of the war, these pieces may have been few and far between because we all know with many other items, quality and production of all items suffered greatly during this time period.

Therefore, a reasonable outlook would be to look at these items with all the information we have available at the time of purchase and take it for what it is.

If an item has the appropriate indication of age through condition, touch, and smell then your on the right track. If further evidence can be obtained by comparing it to a DHW pattern in a book then its even better. If those conditions are met then I would feel reasonable certain that I was getting an authentic Third Reich piece but of course there isn't anyway to be 100% sure that it wasn't say, manufactured in 1945 instead of 1942.

There is also going to be some risk when collecting these tapestry's just because of their very nature, and I think it would do everyone well to remember that. It is going to be almost impossible to find a way to say that yes, definitely, this came from the Third Reich and I think we all know that. These items should be viewed as cultural antiques and any prospective buyers should remember that.

Remember, you can only narrow down the date so much. An item is only worth what the buyer is willing to pay for it!

[Steve T]

Are you laughing at your christian Bernward pattern "beloved little pillow" of yours?

Michael, this is the statement I read from you, and there is no 'if' its a Christian motif. What am I to think, you called it a Christian pillow. Anyway whatever was meant you have explained.

Regarding some sort of conspiracy and feined neutrality, I find that hard to believe, information is publically available, OK for those in Germany its probably easier to find, but I've been searching about for a long time and not found it so its not a great surprise its only just been posted here. I'm sure just like me you guys have been looking too.

Collectors of cultural items who participate in this thread that have communicated with me for a long while know I've always had an open mind on whether these weaved products have been produced after the war as there is no reason why they wouldn't be. They also know my particular preferences for the types of construction and that I've been very careful in respect of what I buy. So it comes and no shock or surprise to me that a firm has been identified and shown to be making weaved products of the types that interest us from 1909 to 2000. This is the firm that you were sent a picture of and I followed with the link containing the full web site address. I actually found that website probably less than a day before the picture appeared here.

I've known of the Museum Workshop for a only while longer and for my research, I like I said to a collector privately here, I was planning to purchase a product for inspection and so compare with tapestry and photographs of tapestry I have and see what could be learnt from it. Some people may prefer to instantly post their findings for whatever reason, but I like to digest what I've found, learn a little, ie read and buy a product to inspect and then make what I would think is a more useful post. Photographs are great but having a brand new item and say compare it to my brown tapestry that I have no doubts about being a period item would be a more useful thing to do than just look at pictures which cannot tell all.

Here's a little postcard I just found This workshop was a DHW supplier, the one that Michael posted wasn't as far I can tell at the moment.

[Steve T]

While I'm far from an expect, I can often tell by touch, feel, and smell if an item has some significant age to it.

Certainly, this is in no way an exact science, especially if something was made in say the 50's-70's.

I would think that this area should be taken with the proverbial "grain of salt". It is an entirely reasonable conclusion that some DHW patterns continued production post war. It is also reasonable to conclude that at the end and in the immediate aftermath of the war, these pieces may have been few and far between because we all know with many other items, quality and production of all items suffered greatly during this time period.

Therefore, a reasonable outlook would be to look at these items with all the information we have available at the time of purchase and take it for what it is.

If an item has the appropriate indication of age through condition, touch, and smell then your on the right track. If further evidence can be obtained by comparing it to a DHW pattern in a book then its even better. If those conditions are met then I would feel reasonable certain that I was getting an authentic Third Reich piece but of course there isn't anyway to be 100% sure that it wasn't say, manufactured in 1945 instead of 1942.

There is also going to be some risk when collecting these tapestry's just because of their very nature, and I think it would do everyone well to remember that. It is going to be almost impossible to find a way to say that yes, definitely, this came from the Third Reich and I think we all know that. These items should be viewed as cultural antiques and any prospective buyers should remember that.

Remember, you can only narrow down the date so much. An item is only worth what the buyer is willing to pay for it!

Grounded and common sense approach!

[Thorsten B.]

Another example out of an old closet

I took this one out of the box yesterday and made this pic.

I bought this piece about three years ago together with the brown tapestry depicting the double-headed eagle, the farmhouses and another tree of life symbol.

Both examples are of the exact same size and construction, are very well preserved means in good condition but they are old - in my opinion from the period.

Are both DHW pieces?

Are they not?

Due to Steve´s brown piece we know for sure that the big tree of life pattern was made in slightly different variations regarding some details and the way the pattern was cut.

This one depicts the tree of life pattern in the exact same way like the ones shown in the DHW booklets but some details are slightly different - just like on Steve´s brown example as far as I can see.

Now this one is green and is a colour I never noticed on any other comparable piece I aquired over the years - but maybe all possible natural colours were in use before, within and after DHW period anyway.
All DHW booklets and pics showing tapestries are black/white so I don´t know.

But what I do know is that I like it and for me that´s all it needs when purchasing such a cultural piece.


By the way: the first DE Standarten were produced by Gahr in 1923 - and although they are definitely not made in the time of 1933-45 I would feel very comfy owning one as well...

[ibrahim ahmad]

By the way: the first DE Standarten were produced by Gahr in 1923 - and although they are definitely not made in the time of 1933-45 I would feel very comfy owning one as well...

Sorry but could you elaborate on this ? What does this has to do with this discussion? I hope Im not trying to be rude or sarcastic as Im still learning about SS cultural items.

Cheers,
Ibrahim

[Thorsten B.]

We are discussing which patterns of tapestries may have been made before, within and after DHW period (means 1933-45) to find out more about the differences or similarities of pieces and related to that the possibility or impossibility to determine their date of manufacture.

With my example I want to express that one of THE most significant NSDAP/SS cultural items was already produced and in use way before the period of the Third Reich.

It was a work in progress regarding every field (which are now the different fields of different collectors) of art, science, society and military out of which the pillars, ideology, ideas and their (artificial) realisation were formed - and not just from 1933 on.

Why and how could the DHW and it´s offered products be different from that development?

[Capt. R]

Michael, this is the statement I read from you, and there is no 'if' its a Christian motif. What am I to think, you called it a Christian pillow. Anyway whatever was meant you have explained.

Regarding some sort of conspiracy and feined neutrality, I find that hard to believe, information is publically available, OK for those in Germany its probably easier to find, but I've been searching about for a long time and not found it so its not a great surprise its only just been posted here. I'm sure just like me you guys have been looking too.

Collectors of cultural items who participate in this thread that have communicated with me for a long while know I've always had an open mind on whether these weaved products have been produced after the war as there is no reason why they wouldn't be. They also know my particular preferences for the types of construction and that I've been very careful in respect of what I buy. So it comes and no shock or surprise to me that a firm has been identified and shown to be making weaved products of the types that interest us from 1909 to 2000. This is the firm that you were sent a picture of and I followed with the link containing the full web site address. I actually found that website probably less than a day before the picture appeared here.

I've known of the Museum Workshop for a only while longer and for my research, I like I said to a collector privately here, I was planning to purchase a product for inspection and so compare with tapestry and photographs of tapestry I have and see what could be learnt from it. Some people may prefer to instantly post their findings for whatever reason, but I like to digest what I've found, learn a little, ie read and buy a product to inspect and then make what I would think is a more useful post. Photographs are great but having a brand new item and say compare it to my brown tapestry that I have no doubts about being a period item would be a more useful thing to do than just look at pictures which cannot tell all.

Here's a little postcard I just found This workshop was a DHW supplier, the one that Michael posted wasn't as far I can tell at the moment.

Nice find, Steve! Unfortunately, there it is, the tree of life pattern I feared was re-produced on the wall above the chest.....another give away seems to be the width of the individual hanging loops to differentiate originals from repros.

If this company produced them for DHW, I will feel a bit better as I may have one that came off the same historic looms, but the whole thing makes me sick as I did not pay a price commensurate with a post-war piece. So, I say again, CAUTION Collectors, and better to jsut avoid them altogether unless you get one from a reliable source. Thanks to Steve T for all his help here in studying these tapestries and taking the time to dissect the finer points of craftsmanship in them.

[Michael Fay]

Context

Michael, this is the statement I read from you, and there is no 'if' its a Christian motif. What am I to think, you called it a Christian pillow. Anyway whatever was meant you have explained.

.

You have taken this out of context. This is one piece of a "conversation" to the claims of another who was willfully mis-quoting you without any correction from you.
Taken without the contextural backdrop, it is willfully misinterpreted.

[Minnesinger]

Nice find, Steve! Unfortunately, there it is, the tree of life pattern I feared was re-produced on the wall above the chest.....another give away seems to be the width of the individual hanging loops to differentiate originals from repros.

On mine there are no "loops" at all. Just as with the tassels the "hangingdevice" is simply the threads of the teppich it self with one seem on top. You push a pole through it alternating over and under.