A couple of Cultural items

[Chris Boonzaier]

I am getting a wooden plate from the daughter of an officer who served in the handschar... seems I am going down a path i never thought I would go down.....

[TrondK]

I am getting a wooden plate from the daughter of an officer who served in the handschar... seems I am going down a path i never thought I would go down.....

Now that is very interesting, did he tell you any from his service?

[Michael Fay]

No, an iron cross does not make something authentic. My point to Daniel was one needs to look at all this information, not just differences, that's all.

Yes, of course there is the possibility someone could build furniture from parts but you write as if this is a true fact, and further, you say Thorsten has a workshop engaged in such activity. What I don't see anywhere is proof that this is the case though you write as if it is.

I know for a fact that one item you have told us that Thorsten has carved runes on is the chest he recently showed, the one with the carved lady and four runes is not true though you write as if it is true. I have seen the pictures of that chest from the previous owner and all four runes are on the piece, prior to Thorsten's ownership. You have condemned this piece without any evidence, only your belief that Thorsten is engaged in forgery with a workshop. Express an opinion sure, but don't condemn it if you don't know what you believe is true.

Again, you think this plate with Reichsnährstand symbol is faked with your presented evidence hinging on some detail you cannot see in a picture. This is purely your interpretation of an image. Fine, you expressed your opinion but that's all it is.

If you believe Thorsten is making plates and furniture and should this be true then the collecting community would surely welcome the exposing of a fake and forgery workshop in Germany. People will applaud your efforts should you be able to show this for a fact but please be more objective, investigate without risking your emotions and personal prejudices influencing your beliefs, do not condemn pieces such as this chest outright just because its your belief Thorsten is a faker.

Why in thorstons own photos do images of carving tools and cabintry shop items appear while some items are in (or have a strong appearance of) stages of being "restored" or "carved" or perfaps "faked"?
I suppose we can all make our own conclusions.
You always have the best spin for this character.
So what are yours?

[Steve T]

Why in thorstons own photos do images of carving tools and cabintry shop items appear while some items are in (or have a strong appearance of) stages of being "restored" or "carved" or perfaps "faked"?
I suppose we can all make our own conclusions.
You always have the best spin for this character.
So what are yours?

Michael,

I've not provided 'spin' for anyone.

In my above post, I know for a fact the runes were on the chest when the owner previous to Thorsten had it, its not drawing a conclusion, its not spin its just the truth.

Regarding this recent plate I have pointed out that the details are in the plate in an image taken in the same time period as other images where you told us missing the details provided proof of post war carving by Thorsten. When it was suggested by another member there maybe two plates pictured I said looking at the grain detail tells us its the same plate. That's the extent of my postings on this matter. That's not spin for Thorsten, merely analysing the data.

Regarding tools in pictures. Tools in pictures don't make anyone a plate faker or wood carver. From Thorsten's postings we can read he uses a restorer. A restorer has a workshop, the pictures are in a workshop. If Thorsten ran a faking workshop or worked in a faking workshop it would be incredibly stupid to present the world with his workshop pictures. That's not spin and its also not proof that he doesn't fake plates, but without clear proof that he fakes plates or furniture in this pictured workshop I don't think its right to keep suggesting he does. If he does and you prove it, fair enough but until then its not unreasonable to draw a conclusion that this claimed fakery of plates and furniture carving is only your belief, your drawn conclusion.

[Michael Fay]

Michael,

I've not provided 'spin' for anyone.

In my above post, I know for a fact the runes were on the chest when the owner previous to Thorsten had it, its not drawing a conclusion, its not spin its just the truth.

Regarding this recent plate I have pointed out that the details are in the plate in an image taken in the same time period as other images where you told us missing the details provided proof of post war carving by Thorsten. When it was suggested by another member there maybe two plates pictured I said looking at the grain detail tells us its the same plate. That's the extent of my postings on this matter. That's not spin for Thorsten, merely analysing the data.

Regarding tools in pictures. Tools in pictures don't make anyone a plate faker or wood carver. From Thorsten's postings we can read he uses a restorer. A restorer has a workshop, the pictures are in a workshop. If Thorsten ran a faking workshop or worked in a faking workshop it would be incredibly stupid to present the world with his workshop pictures. That's not spin and its also not proof that he doesn't fake plates, but without clear proof that he fakes plates or furniture in this pictured workshop I don't think its right to keep suggesting he does. If he does and you prove it, fair enough but until then its not unreasonable to draw a conclusion that this claimed fakery of plates and furniture carving is only your belief, your drawn conclusion.

As far as it goes, Steve...
Ok,
it is only my suspicion he 'has somthing to do (infer what you want)' with in-authentic items.

By the "spin" I refer to is not to one single little point of yours (nice deflection by the way), instead it is in referance to the corpus of you posts involving thorsten in a positive spin.

Oh by the way, Just to clear the air:
do you conclude the wooden plate (with the time paradox) is authentic or a FAKE?

[Steve T]

As far as it goes, Steve...
Ok,
it is only my suspicion he 'has somthing to do (infer what you want)' with in-authentic items.

By the "spin" I refer to is not to one single little point of yours (nice deflection by the way), instead it is in referance to the corpus of you posts involving thorsten in a positive spin.

Oh by the way, Just to clear the air:
do you conclude the wooden plate (with the time paradox) is authentic or a FAKE?

Thank you for your clarification of only being suspicious. I have clearly inferred that you have accused Thorsten of fakery. With such words in respect of the runic chest '

when did you carve those runes again? last year wasnt it?

I honestly thought from that post you believed Thorsten carved those runes, hence my post to tell you I know for a fact he didn't.


There's no deflection. Positive spin for Thorsten, I don't know about that, infer what you want, positivity is only relative, it can only exist if there is something more negative.

As can be seen the plate looks to be in excellent condition with little to show us any signs of age. Its also very difficult to determine if there is any form of surface coating remaining, the pictures don't give any real indication that there is a any form of seal on the wood but I bear in mind that I know wood is very difficult to represent correctly in photographs and I also know that even a plate that was sealed in shellac can show almost no sign of it remaining, a plate with only traces of shellac would be very difficult to photograph to show these traces.

Being in excellent condition, having no visible signs of any form of seal in the pictures or any other features like the turning lines it shows do not provide clear indication in the pictures that this is a fake plate.

I disagree with Thorsten about this piece being a masterpiece. It would seem that many members believe that Third Reich plates have to be some super made craftsman quality, I don't believe so, many original plates are not, there is a big range of quality. Some are excellent yes, most are not and possibly made by HJ workshops, RAD, wounded servicemen learning a potential vocation, craft schools, TR period hobbyists and so on.

While you have to be open to the possibility its a fake I see no reason at this point based on what we see here to judge it a fake. This plate is one that if I were looking to acquire it, I would have to reserve judgement on until I had it in my hands. There is no way I can be sure from pictures. It's very likely this plate would look a lot better in hand, in my experience they always do.

To clear the air further, do you now feel you can make a precise judgement on this plate from pictures? Can you condemn this piece as being a fake without any doubt?

[Michael Fay]

Motives matter

Michael,

You are presenting a hypothetical situation and you are wrong.

You are also wrong about the photographs as well. This Urne is indeed very rare but more than one exists. Not that it is any of your business where this Sachsen-urne comes from I can tell you these two pictured are not one and the same piece.

Surely you are not claiming to have no transactions with Thorsten?
Please state this clearly.
One begins to wonder about your motives.
It is my business to wonder about the motives of one who is ever so silent on Thorstens suspicious activities and the one who always runs to defend him (or deflect for him) and hector me for the sheer audacity of daring to do so.

[Steve T]

Surely you are not claiming to have no transactions with Thorsten?
Please state this clearly.
One begins to wonder about your motives.
It is my business to wonder about the motives of one who is ever so silent on Thorstens suspicious activities and the one who always runs to defend him (or deflect for him) and hector me for the sheer audacity of daring to do so.

It's very clear to see from this thread that I have several fine pieces from Thorsten. These do not include the Sachsen Urne.

I'm also not running to defend Thorsten, I'm not hectoring you either. Pointing out you are mistaken with respect to carved runes on the chest and the time of carving on a plate is not hectoring. Its nothing to do with having some audacity to question another member, I would have thought you would like to know you made mistakes and that it was in fact helpful to you.

[Michael Fay]

It's very clear to see from this thread that I have several fine pieces from Thorsten. These do not include the Sachsen Urne.

I'm also not running to defend Thorsten, I'm not hectoring you either. Pointing out you are mistaken with respect to carved runes on the chest and the time of carving on a plate is not hectoring. Its nothing to do with having some audacity to question another member, I would have thought you would like to know you made mistakes and that it was in fact helpful to you.

Of course you have transactions with Thorsten.
I am glad I could help you to stop feigning a false neutrality on this issue.
It may be interesting to observe carefully what type of help you dole out in the future.
Maybe you could also help out others as to not get fooled by fakes sold on estand instead of saving your help for me.
I will also repay your help by watching for anymore of your deflections and diversions when you jump into threads on Thorstens suspicious activities and be helpful to you in pointing them out especially as this may be a conflict of interest .

[Steve T]

Of course you have transactions with Thorsten.
I am glad I could help you to stop feigning a false neutrality on this issue.
It may be interesting to observe carefully what type of help you dole out in the future.
Maybe you could also help out others as to not get fooled by fakes sold on estand instead of saving your help for me.
I will also repay your help by watching for anymore of your deflections and diversions when you jump into threads on Thorstens suspicious activities and be helpful to you in pointing them out especially as this may be a conflict of interest .

Pointing out your errors does not equate to diversion or deflection. What I wrote was pertinent to the topic of carving, both with your mistake on the runic chest and the plate. If you don't see this, so be it. I suspect others do.

You have your suspicions about Thorsten, that's clear but the chest should not add to those suspicions, its clear you suspected it wrongly. It's not wrong for me to advise you of this but I suspect I was wrong in thinking it helpful to you as you don't acknowledge an error of judgement in either case.

Looking for things in my collection that came from Thorsten bears no relevance to the topic of the carvings I commented on and when you picked out my Sachsen Urne you were also wrong. It is only relevant to you and your hypothesis, your suggestions of feigned neutrality and so on.

Regarding help, I'd like to think I have helped a good number of people that frequent this forum, as they have helped me too.

[Michael Fay]

Pointing out your errors does not equate to diversion or deflection. What I wrote was pertinent to the topic of carving, both with your mistake on the runic chest and the plate. If you don't see this, so be it. I suspect others do.

You have your suspicions about Thorsten, that's clear but the chest should not add to those suspicions, its clear you suspected it wrongly. It's not wrong for me to advise you of this but I suspect I was wrong in thinking it helpful to you as you don't acknowledge an error of judgement in either case.

Looking for things in my collection that came from Thorsten bears no relevance to the topic of the carvings I commented on and when you picked out my Sachsen Urne you were also wrong. It is only relevant to you and your hypothesis, your suggestions of feigned neutrality and so on.

Regarding help, I'd like to think I have helped a good number of people that frequent this forum, as they have helped me too.

Oh..your deflections are now tedious.
By deflections I mean in all your rescue posts to save Thorsten from getting to overtly exposed as a suspicious character with suspicious items every time he starts getting caught(which is all the time, I might add.Not that you will admit you understand me anyway---more diversions and deflections.

As I have ascertained to not necessarily trust anything you say as you have a motive to keep a modicum of salvagability in Thorsten's reputation and those items you acquire from him(...and sell on perhaps-maybe that Black Sun plate?) , I am free to consider your word as not being important for my moral compass.
That being said, the chest that you alone keep bringing up-(not I), if you are to be trusted on it anyway, is most likely runic enhanced by someone after the TR era, who ever it may be-thorsten or another before him. Did you have any money in that chest too?
I have been warned by dealers that Thorsten is destroying the hobby . None of them want his name associated with what they sell.
Certainly not the world of Allach collectors, nor any others.
But you acquire items from him and never have called him out on any suspicious item, despite your presumed experience in this hobby.
So your word holds less weight with me, and I am sure with others now.
Oh yes, spare me your time paradoxes as evidence from now on, you are not neutral when it comes to Thorsten.

[Adrian Stevenson]

This is a final warning to all concerned. No more un proven personal attacks.

Cheers, Ade.

[Steve T]

Oh..your deflections are now tedious.
By deflections I mean in all your rescue posts to save Thorsten from getting to overtly exposed as a suspicious character with suspicious items every time he starts getting caught(which is all the time, I might add.Not that you will admit you understand me anyway---more diversions and deflections.

As I have ascertained to not necessarily trust anything you say as you have a motive to keep a modicum of salvagability in Thorsten's reputation and those items you acquire from him(...and sell on perhaps-maybe that Black Sun plate?) , I am free to consider your word as not being important for my moral compass.
That being said, the chest that you alone keep bringing up-(not I), if you are to be trusted on it anyway, is most likely runic enhanced by someone ante TR era, who ever it may be-thorsten or another before him. Did you have any money in that chest too?
I have been warned by dealers that Thorsten is destroying the hobby . None of them want his name associated with what they sell.
Certainly not the world of Allach collectors, nor any others.
But you acquire items from him and never have called him out on any suspicious item, despite your presumed experience in this hobby.
So your word holds less weight with me, and I am sure with others now.
Oh yes, spare me your time paradoxes as evidence from now on, you are not neutral when it comes to Thorsten.

Sun plate, wrong again.

Money in that chest? Wrong again.

Not neutral when it comes to Thorsten? Wrong again.

You are so wrong. My word holds less weight? People have their own minds I'm not making efforts force my opinions on anyone.

[Anthony Evans]

I believe the bickering is done with, To restart the thread on cultured SS items I got this in the mail the other day with the insert

[Steve T]

I believe the bickering is done with, To restart the thread on cultured SS items I got this in the mail the other day with the insert

That must be quite a scarce, great addition to your collection.