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**Bob Hritz** · 11-02-2011, 10:26 PM

Nole could sell me his German Order and I would be tickled pink to accept any flak by those who do not like it. I think it is a wonderful piece.

Bob Hritz

**ErichS** · 11-03-2011, 04:49 PM

Originally posted by Bob Hritz View Post

Nole could sell me his German Order and I would be tickled pink to accept any flak by those who do not like it. I think it is a wonderful piece.

Bob Hritz

I would welcome it in my collection as well!

**jabnus** · 11-03-2011, 05:12 PM

For those interested:

http://www.amazon.com/German-Party-A.../dp/0711034311

This last book by Warlord has 11 pages on the German Order and i think it's his best book so far...

For only 17 dollar a nice book to get.

**ErichS** · 11-03-2011, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by jabnus View Post

For those interested:

http://www.amazon.com/German-Party-A.../dp/0711034311

This last book by Warlord has 11 pages on the German Order and i think it's his best book so far...

For only 17 dollar a nice book to get.

I purchased the book and it's very good in dealing with Political awards. Even though his reputation has taken a major hit which is much deserved he does have a good knowledge on this award and others.

**Thorsten B.** · 11-03-2011, 06:06 PM

Is there really no article dealing about this well-known (and on the other hand not really well-known) award in one of Patzwall´s Militaria issues?

Can´t imagine that.

**Gary Symonds** · 11-09-2011, 04:23 PM

Originally posted by ErichS View Post

I purchased the book and it's very good in dealing with Political awards. Even though his reputation has taken a major hit which is much deserved he does have a good knowledge on this award and others.

One of the major reasons for Ailsby's reputation having taken "a major hit" is the fact that he was instumental in creating and fabricating the so-called "Polish" Gestapo disks and the Prussian State Police disks, with "Berlin" at the bottom, in the middle 90s. Fellow WAF member Don Bible was taken in at that time for the tune of $2,500, by a "Gestapo" disk and it took Don several years to get his money back. This was only because he published these details on his website, and I guess Ailsby could not take the bad publicity.

Interestingly enough, even after the facts of his duplcity was revealed, Ailsby in a subsequent hard back book on the SS, still published a picture of a Prussian, State Police, Berlin disk, clearly one of his fakes, without informing the reader that this was a post-war example, for reference only.

**jabnus** · 11-09-2011, 05:48 PM

Hi Gary,

i don't want to get caught up in anything, but i have heard a few times another story thats been floating the collectorsworld for the past 15 years or so, regaring these disks? I've heard Don Bible bought indeed one of those disks and thought that it was ultrarare and unique, wereas Ailsby later managed to get his hands on a larger number of originals of them (i think to remember 25, but it could have been another number), this caused Don Bible to be not pleased that he payed such a high price and then spread falsely the news that all are bad while they are actually originals? Also since then everyone has an own opinion what or who is good or bad and stories are being made up?

Im not trying to speak good or bad of anyone here (others probably know it better), but always thought that us (the collectors) have been the losing party here as it seems that good disks are called bad since then? Lately it seems reputations are called out here on waf, some people selling obvious fakes and having threads in the collectors area that are regarded as all knowing experts and others are called plain bad while no one seems to known what is actually going on. I think it's best to rather stick to the items ourselves and let all stories out of good topics like this one here?

best regards,

**ErichS** · 11-09-2011, 05:53 PM

I was referring to the honor dagger fiasco which has been resolved. Otherwise I have no beef with Chris.

**Chris Obermeyer** · 11-11-2011, 10:04 AM

Jabnus said:
"I think it's best to rather stick to the items ourselves and let all stories out of good topics like this one here?"

Jabnus is right. That´s why I did not want to make comments on Bill Stump that I knew personally, or on Chris Ailsby, that I am fully aware of those stories.

By the way, and back to the business in hands, have you gentlemen, check the preview of the auction #46 from our friend Andreas Thies? I really think that you´ll find it very interesting.
C. Obermeyer.

**Alex W.** · 11-11-2011, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by Chris Obermeyer View Post

Jabnus said:
"I think it's best to rather stick to the items ourselves and let all stories out of good topics like this one here?"

Jabnus is right. That´s why I did not want to make comments on Bill Stump that I knew personally, or on Chris Ailsby, that I am fully aware of those stories.

By the way, and back to the business in hands, have you gentlemen, check the preview of the auction #46 from our friend Andreas Thies? I really think that you´ll find it very interesting.
C. Obermeyer.

Thanks for the link to the Thies Auction.
A while ago you said you weren't going to comment on the decorations only marked 935. Now I seem to understand why.

Alex

**Chris Obermeyer** · 11-13-2011, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by Roc View Post

Thanks for the link to the Thies Auction.
A while ago you said you weren't going to comment on the decorations only marked 935. Now I seem to understand why.

Alex

Hello Alex,
Yes I do have my own theory. Of course these are early days for comments, but I do have a problem with that pin catch with an odd design. Although I have seen similar designs on German Imperial decorations I believe that pin catch is a replacement.
What is regarding to those German Orders only marked "935", let´s see how much Andreas Thies knows about.
You may want to check the link bellow. This dealer found a new "maker" of German Orders, this time is "Zimmermann Hoard" or so he said. I would love to see his research.
http://www.emedals.ca/catalog.asp?item=GRA4005
Chris.

**Leroy** · 11-13-2011, 10:03 AM

Hmm.....I know nothing about German Orders, but the '935' and the "O" on that piece on 'emedals' from the "burned Zimmermann hoard" make me think there is an S&L connection. Were these included in the "special orders" which could be obtained from the company (if you knew someone) in the 70's?

**Alex W.** · 11-15-2011, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by Chris Obermeyer View Post

Roc asked:
"Have you ever seen an unmarked 1st Class Deutscher Orden by Souval ?

No, I have not. Several years ago I heard about a First Class without any markings, however, we knew that the owner tried to erase all original markings with the help of "weak" acids and an extensive new polishing as well as a new gold wash, but it is not that difficult to expose this kind of fraud.
All crosses made by Souval had markings.
Chris.

Chris,

I received the first class decoration I questioned you about today.

Besides having that extended loop, just like the Deumer pieces and perfectly smooth enamel on the party badge part, I can definitely say it’s a Souval manufactured piece.
Another thing different from the known Souval decorations is the fact, that it definitely has no markings at all. There is also no sign of any work done to it, in order to erase any markings.

-Alex

**Chris Obermeyer** · 11-18-2011, 09:18 AM

Originally posted by Leroy View Post

Hmm.....I know nothing about German Orders, but the '935' and the "O" on that piece on 'emedals' from the "burned Zimmermann hoard" make me think there is an S&L connection. Were these included in the "special orders" which could be obtained from the company (if you knew someone) in the 70's?

Hello Leroy,
I am not sure if I correctly understood your question but German Orders said to be made by Zimmermann or S&L are fakes and probably made by the same individual. Notice that crosses, until recently accepted as originals, are almost identical.
There is a company, may be based in California, selling high quality reproductions. I have seen repros of German Orders they sell and the design is identical to those I talked above, only the enamel work is a little high.
I wrote e-mails for them several years ago asking for information regerding to the making of those crosses but...no answer whatsoever.
They also sell high quality repros of all classes Eagle Orders.
In both cases, German Orders as well as Eagle Orders, they were being made in Europe, I hear England and Romania and may be Hungary.
This is the link:
http://www.thirdreich.ca/
Regards,
Chris.

**Chris Obermeyer** · 11-18-2011, 09:42 AM

Originally posted by Roc View Post

Chris,

I received the first class decoration I questioned you about today.

Besides having that extended loop, just like the Deumer pieces and perfectly smooth enamel on the party badge part, I can definitely say it’s a Souval manufactured piece.
Another thing different from the known Souval decorations is the fact, that it definitely has no markings at all. There is also no sign of any work done to it, in order to erase any markings.

-Alex

Hello Alex,
It may be Souval indeed, but it could be something else.
Remember that Rudolf Souval bought original dies from Deumer, only, whatever happened to those dies?
I hear that after Souval died, the family sold all dies from every decoration he used to make. The German Order dies were apparently sold to a German from East-Germany in origin. Your decoration may be Deumer/Souval but made by another party.
Please check your PM box.
Best Regards,
Chris.

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3 Deutscher Orden in one lot!!!!! Rarest of The Rare

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