3 Deutscher Orden in one lot!!!!! Rarest of The Rare

[Alex W.]

Those are much better pictures! look at how much detail they put in the head and that eye, WOW The red enemel looks like red paint, the partypin is way off center, the oakleaves mouted on the arms are not mounted even, the pin is to long. Even when made in silver the catch busted off, "high quality" I dont think the first class ones they made are that much nicer than the third.

The head of the eagle is clearly lacking detail. Sure doesn’t look like a high class fabrication. The red enamel looks “bumpy” and not very nice too. The party badge is a little off too and true, the pin is too long. Really have to agree that it doesn’t look very high in quality.
Now as for the first class decorations, the ones I’ve seen have fine detail on the eagle heads, the enamel is fine and not bumpy, party badges centred. Not all seem be created equal.
As for the oak leaves mounted on the arms, I’ve also seen Deumer manufactured decorations with uneven oak leaves on the arms.

-Alex

[jabnus]

Not wanting to stir anything up, but why are all these fake ones being posted now?

They are a very weak shadow of original ones. The thing with high end items like this is that the quality of the awards speaks for itself. There are so many red flags on the ones posted on this page, that it's obvious to a blind man they're not good.

[NBolinger]

medal

I went a little crazy posting pics of fake badges some are not suval i guess, Sorry for the confusion. Alex good point on the arms not being mounted even, on some i have seen you can see the thick gold line under the gold leaves and some you cant? Maybe just another type, if they were all made to order i guess there would be slight differences but nothing major.

[ErichS]

Chris if there is no real good pictures that can prove how the medal was made what makes any of what you are saying gospel truth? What about the Todt death pillow picture? It clearly showes a floting swaz in the center of the party pin. Thats the best wartime picture i could find of the medal.How can you tell thats a suval on the heydrichs death pillow?

Chris i am out of my class on this medal thats a FACT but i feel as if i can still fight for it since you have brought nothing to the table except your opnions on the medals. If you could just post some pictures and add something that would be super. I have had quite a crash course on these medals and have read alot more on it then i ever figured i would.

How many ww2 german medals have you ever seen marked 935?That are real not some kind of jewelers copy. Most of the german items made during the war were 800 silver thats goes for pre war medals as well. Eagles orders are marked 800 right?

Don't forget that the 1st pattern Blood Order had a .990 silver content. In fact I don't know of any other award with as high a silver content.

[NBolinger]

Thanks

here is a deumer and a suval the pictures speak for themself. Thanks Eric for the info.

The eagles on the 1st class suval look almost like the same eagles on the 3rd class suval, same die features?
If the suvals had so much quality , you would think they could line up the partypin, on every suval that i have seen the partypin is off center.

Chris I have read that the eagle orders are marked 900, were they ever marked 925 or 935? Chris im no expert i think ive proven that by my statements, but until a few weeks ago all these suval crosses were considered old fakes and in past threds on this forum this has all been gone over by people who have written books on the subject. I think the todt death pillow picture should put the nail in the coffin that at least the first ones they made were just like the deumer made medals.

[Alex W.]

Is the second class German Order in the Bewertungskatalog picture shown in post #118
attached to an Eagle Order ribbon, or am I wrong ?

[Chris Obermeyer]

Roc asked:
"Have you ever seen an unmarked 1st Class Deutscher Orden by Souval ?

No, I have not. Several years ago I heard about a First Class without any markings, however, we knew that the owner tried to erase all original markings with the help of "weak" acids and an extensive new polishing as well as a new gold wash, but it is not that difficult to expose this kind of fraud.
All crosses made by Souval had markings.
Chris.

[Chris Obermeyer]

Bolinger said:
"Chris im no expert i think ive proven that by my statements, but until a few weeks ago all these suval crosses were considered old fakes and in past threds on this forum this has all been gone over by people who have written books on the subject. I think the todt death pillow picture should put the nail in the coffin that at least the first ones they made were just like the deumer made medals."

Once again Bolinger, how can you be so sure by that bad quality picture, that Todt´s decoration was made by those "accepted originals"? Do you have a single prove that Deumer made the German Order like those "accepted originals"? Let´s get real, it´s time to face reality! The accepted German Orders are FAKES! No books, no pictures whatsoever may be used to establish once and for all the real look of an original German Order! All I am saying is that since Souval, in FACT, did buy sets of dyes from Deumer, Souval´s crosses are the most accurate design from the very few originals we know they made for a FACT! It is indeed the best you can buy and feel very, very close to the, impossible to get, originals.
I do not know how can it be possible, collectors and experts still accept without questions those crosses always available in hundreds for such a low price, when they should be considered one of the most rare and beautiful decoration ever.
I used observations, logical interpretations and texts from real information published in books with credibility, as mentioned by me, earlier in this thread. However I was NEVER speculating.
I may accept differences in design from one to another, like in the case of the "Floating Swastika situation", but I will NEVER accept a cross with this value of Merit made in cheap bronze, NO WAY, it´s just not possible! Besides, the Special Class was made in solid gold (18K) and marked on the reverse as I have seen that with my own eyes.
Finally, regarding to a subject with this magnitude and importance, I don´t think we should "put a nail in the coffin..." , as a lot more informations are needed.
Chris.

[NBolinger]

Chris

Chris, the picture of the todt death pillow clearly showes te deumer made cross. Anybody with eyes can see it. I think you will never accept reality. Of corse you still still prove us all wrong with pictures? According to real experts who have wrote about the medal most of what you say is not true.You are the only one in the world that thinks the suval crosses are close to the real ones.

[Chris Obermeyer]

Chris, the picture of the todt death pillow clearly showes te deumer made cross. Anybody with eyes can see it. I think you will never accept reality. Of corse you still still prove us all wrong with pictures? According to real experts who have wrote about the medal most of what you say is not true.You are the only one in the world that thinks the suval crosses are close to the real ones.

Of course that picture shows an original cross made by the only maker, Deumer, but it is NOT the same cross to those, now mere fakes, "accepted originals". As the matter of FACT, the only thing those pictures may show, very clear, is that Todt`s cross is indeed different from Heydrich´s as I mentioned before. Take a look to the cutout suspension on Todt´s cross and the solid version on Heydrich´s cross. Anybody with eyes can see...
May I ask who are those "experts" you are talking about? I want names. So far I haven´t seen anyone offering intelligent arguments as a true expert would do! There´s a few people interested in the subject and desperate people like you terrified with the truth being uncovered.
The fact is that what I am saying about the German Order does not go against published books, but you are!
It is printed in BOOKS that the lettering MUST BE IN GOLD and crosses WERE MADE IN SILVER GILT! So, any crosses different from that description are FAKES, get it? If you do not agree please PROVE NOW just like I did.
You want pictures? You ain´t gonna get it. Do your homework.
The history of the German Order is just beginning, be asure I do know a lot more with the help of those ...pictures... and of course my secret friend the ONLY true expert I know.
Christian Obermeyer

[NBolinger]

How about Bill Stump or Warlord? Have you read any of there comments on the medal in past threds?Or were they all wrong to?Warlord wrote a book, just a year or two ago. I still think you are wrong and with no proof i still have to belive mine is a original type and the suvals are all fake.
The todt cross is the same as mine. Just look at the pics, I feel like im in the twilight Zone.\
We aint going to get pics because you are affraid to post them and get real experts opinions on your friends fake suvals.LOL

[Chris Obermeyer]

How about Bill Stump or Warlord? Have you read any of there comments on the medal in past threds?Or were they all wrong to?Warlord wrote a book, just a year or two ago. I still think you are wrong and with no proof i still have to belive mine is a original type and the suvals are all fake.
The todt cross is the same as mine. Just look at the pics, I feel like im in the twilight Zone.

But my dear Sir, you are in the Twilight Zone as how desperate you are trying to make others and even yourself to believe your cross is authentic. How pathetic. You are talking about money and I am talking about history. I am sorry for you.
As for Bill Stump and Chris Ailsby (warlord) I will make no comments in respect that one is deceased and warlord is not here to defend himself.
Chris.
P.S. I also wrote a book, not published...yet.

[Chris Obermeyer]

"im in the twilight Zone.\
We aint going to get pics because you are affraid to post them and get real experts opinions on your friends fake suvals.LOL[/QUOTE]"

AGAIN, who are these experts ?????? Deceased people and expelled members? You are indeed in the Twilight Zone. Be very careful, one of these days you will get into a bar to have a beer and on your way out as doors close behind you, what you´ll see next, is something, as two uniformed SS officers, right outside the bar, will ask you for ID and.... you may know the rest of that weird story...
Chris.

[NBolinger]

medal

Chris these are real old timers, Who are you?one is dead but his post still live on on the forum i suggest you go back and do some reading. Warlord is gone but he still knows what hes talking about.

[BobI]

Interesting, Nole does seem to make a better argument here and I almost wonder if Chris has a bone or interest in this as well. Bill Stump, if he went into detail I am sure nearly everyone would go with his analysis on these crosses.
Just how it looks from here,
Bob