Putsch/ Feldherrnhalle Grouping

[Jon. H]

If you could not afford the statue these could obviously be purchased as an alternative souvenir

Mine is now for sale on estand

FHH3.jpg

[ErichS]

Yes, in 1947 the bodies of the "Eternal Watch" were removed from their places in the Temples of Honor and reburied in local Munich cemeteries and, as Erich notes, they were exhumed over the years and most have been lost to history. The original burials of fourteen of the sixteen men killed in the Putsch took place at local Munich cemeteries so they were close at hand when needed for the ceremonies and reburials at the Temples of Honor. However, two of them were not local and their bodies had to be shipped by rail back to Munich: the remains of Wilhelm Ehrlich and Johann Rickmers arrived by train from Gralow/Warthegau and Vortlage/Westphalia, respectively. Since these two men were apparently buried in family plots close to where they lived, I have always wondered whether one or both of them might have been returned to Gralow and Vortlage in 1947 or later, by family request.

Br. James

Br. James, after the Putsch Hitler wanted all of the 16 put into a common grave but he was turned down by the Munich authorities.

[Br. James]

Thanks for that note, Erich, and no one should be surprised, given that the Putsch was regarded as a failed revolutionary overthrow attempt against the Bavarian Government and Hitler and his 'co-conspirators' were rounded up and put on trial for treason, he was surely not dealing from a position of power or influence at that time! But as we also know, he eventually got his own way, and spectacularly so, in the ceremonies of November 7-9, 1935.

Br. James

[ErichS]

Here's an interesting photo of the FHH showing the bomb damage at the end of the war.

[A.Doyle]

Thanks for that note, Erich, and no one should be surprised, given that the Putsch was regarded as a failed revolutionary overthrow attempt against the Bavarian Government and Hitler and his 'co-conspirators' were rounded up and put on trial for treason, he was surely not dealing from a position of power or influence at that time! But as we also know, he eventually got his own way, and spectacularly so, in the ceremonies of November 7-9, 1935.

Br. James

Hello All.
That is not what happened. Komissar von Kahr was the one who planed the coup d`etat (Putsch) against the corrupted Bavarian Government. Adolf Hitler happens to be on his way, as he had the biggest and most organized right wing party, the ONLY true oposition. To deal with this situation, von Kahr invited Hitler to take part on the Putsch. He was only biding his time, playing a dangerous game. On the night of November 8th, von Kahr invited every right wing party, except Hitler´s NSDAP, to the Bürgerbräukeller, in the hope to get support and the unification of every party. When Hitler heard about it, he knew that was the time to act.
We all know what happend next.
In one sense he took advantage from von Kahr´s idea and von Kahr´s timming.
Komissar von Kahr was never on trial or even charged with anything, however several protests against von Kahr were registered by the press, at the Feldherrnhalle National Monument.
Aylson Doyle.

[ErichS]

Hello All.
That is not what happened. Komissar von Kahr was the one who planed the coup d`etat (Putsch) against the corrupted Bavarian Government. Adolf Hitler happens to be on his way, as he had the biggest and most organized right wing party, the ONLY true oposition. To deal with this situation, von Kahr invited Hitler to take part on the Putsch. He was only biding his time, playing a dangerous game. On the night of November 8th, von Kahr invited every right wing party, except Hitler´s NSDAP, to the Bürgerbräukeller, in the hope to get support and the unification of every party. When Hitler heard about it, he knew that was the time to act.
We all know what happend next.
In one sense he took advantage from von Kahr´s idea and von Kahr´s timming.
Komissar von Kahr was never on trial or even charged with anything, however several protests against von Kahr were registered by the press, at the Feldherrnhalle National Monument.
Aylson Doyle.

Aylison, you are correct that Kahr wanted to over throw the govenment but Hitler had promised him that he would wait until Kahr was ready but Hitler decided to go early thus turning Kahr against the Putsch.

[A.Doyle]

Aylison, you are correct that Kahr wanted to over throw the govenment but Hitler had promised him that he would wait until Kahr was ready but Hitler decided to go early thus turning Kahr against the Putsch.

Hello Erich.
Indeed Hitler decided to go early. Komisar von Kahr´s idea was to politically isolate Hitler, that´s why the NSDAP was not invited to that meeting on 8th November. You are correct about Hitler´s promise to wait, also he promised to stop the SA violence on the streets, especially against the comunists, wich became, in my opinion, the turning point in the relation between Adolf Hitler and SA-Stabschef Ernst Röhm.
I strongly belive that Hitler had, long before, his own ideas about a Putsch against the government, somehow and wisely, he waited. Remember that the economic situation in Germany could not be worse and when that happens revolution is just a matter of time!
I have this feeling that von Kahr was never a true opposition against German Government, but just another way to make people believe things were about to change. If I am right, Hitler knew that.
Regards,
Aylson Doyle.

[ErichS]

I think that knowing the history of the events that took place on the 8 & 9th of November 1923 is every bit as important as the Blood Orders that we collect. Thanks to both Br. James and Aylson for their contrabutions.

[Br. James]

Thanks for your response, Erich -- those were heddy days and the history is so fascinating! Aylson has provided comments at a deeper level of detail than my brief overview, but I think our understanding of the overall situation which brought on the Beer Hall Putsch is in accord. Thanks to you, as well, Aylson.

Br. James

[ErichS]

Here's a famous photo of Hitler consoling a widow of one of the Putsch Martyrs during the transfer of the bodies to the Ehrentempels.

[Matt Gibbs]

It would seem plausible, in the way that sometimes small miniatures or ribbon bars, or in Germany those traditional "knots" or buttons of ribbons are worn in civilian clothes, that the small mini Blood Order ribbon is for wear in the lapel when in civilian clothes, would it not?

Much like the other miniature stick pins that were made for other types of awards, including the Gau Ehrenzeichen, worn in the lapel of a suit when not "on duty", or at functions not requiring a Blood Order holder to wear uniform it could then be worn, to show their Alte Kampfer status?

Until I noted the discussion on this thread it seemed to me pretty obvious that this was its intended use, otherwise, as mentioned several times, it fulfills no obvious need. It doesn't act as a ribbon bar for in uniform because the medal [or ribbon] is only authorised to be worn on the right pocket flap, so it can't be to fulfill a use when in uniform.

Am I making sense?
Regards
Matt

[ErichS]

It would seem plausible, in the way that sometimes small miniatures or ribbon bars, or in Germany those traditional "knots" or buttons of ribbons are worn in civilian clothes, that the small mini Blood Order ribbon is for wear in the lapel when in civilian clothes, would it not?

Much like the other miniature stick pins that were made for other types of awards, including the Gau Ehrenzeichen, worn in the lapel of a suit when not "on duty", or at functions not requiring a Blood Order holder to wear uniform it could then be worn, to show their Alte Kampfer status?

Until I noted the discussion on this thread it seemed to me pretty obvious that this was its intended use, otherwise, as mentioned several times, it fulfills no obvious need. It doesn't act as a ribbon bar for in uniform because the medal [or ribbon] is only authorised to be worn on the right pocket flap, so it can't be to fulfill a use when in uniform.

Am I making sense?
Regards
Matt

Matt, I agree with your statement regarding the ribbon devises but to date I have not seen one worn in a period photo and a lot doubt their existence at all. They seem to only be connected with the 1st striking of the award and as I mentioned before, they could have been a tag along accessory and not meant to have been worn at all.

[ErichS]

One last point, Jon's example along with mine and the one that came with the Fobke cased Order pictured in Niemann's book are 100% period IMO but as stated,their purpose is still unknown.

[Matt Gibbs]

Thank you Erich.
My reasoning was based on the simple fact that when you see a cased award with a mini in it, its usually meant for civilian wear.
I also guess that finding a good frontal photo of a Blood Order holder at a non-uniform civilain event where he might conceavably wear such a device is also going to be a very rare find Still, it gives all you BO owners something to think about I guess

Incidentally I love the photos and postcards which add flavour to the collecting theme, the Feldherrnhalle and the monument itself, I might just have to look out for some myself.

[Erich B.]

I agree, it makes perfect sense that a BO awardee should have been able to wear a lapel pin indicating his prestigious status, but I've never been able to find any indication that this was the case. Nor have I seen a photo of anyone wearing such a device, although the number of BO wearers was so small that, except for the 9. November celebrations or the Alte Kämpfer trips, it's rare to see the full sized award on a tunic or brownshirt in a photo. Another interesting research topic!
I suppose a wearer could have commissioned a jeweler to make one or a few for himself and/or other Träger. I doubt they could have gotten into trouble for wearing a lapel pin, as long as they were bona fide awardees.
Erich