The OTHER 1st Type Blood Order

[ErichS]

I hear you re: Hitler's own badge. Perhaps it was thought of more in the terms of a keepsake rather than an actual decoration? Just a speculation on my part of course...
As for Maurice's specimen(s)- I still think and hope that the pic as posted by Gaston has been manipulated to protect against some of the more enterprising individuals (by moving the 990 mark) rather than showing us another Maurice badge. I have been staring at those versos for a long time but somehow think that I am looking at the exact same piece.
Strange is an understatement for sure!
cheers

Matt

Strange is an understatement Matt. I have heard that more than a few Maurice items have been faked. Agree with Gaston, was the technology there in 2000/01 when the article was published?

[Matthew]

strange is the word

Strange is an understatement Matt. I have heard that more than a few Maurice items have been faked. Agree with Gaston, was the technology there in 2000/01 when the article was published?

The tools were definitely available to achieve this result (photoshop was commercially available early 90s with professional tools being used well before then).
I can see how one would want to protect himself and the artifact against reproducing. Maybe Bob Coleman could shed some light on it? Or Patzwall? Anyone that has any contact with him?

[Matthew]

strange is the word

Strange is an understatement Matt. I have heard that more than a few Maurice items have been faked. Agree with Gaston, was the technology there in 2000/01 when the article was published?

The tools were definitely available to achieve this result (photoshop was commercially available early 90s with professional tools being used well before then).
I can see how one would want to protect himself and the artifact against reproducing. Maybe Bob Coleman could shed some light on it? Or Patzwall? Anyone that has any contact with him?

cheers
Matt

[ErichS]

Not that I will ever have a chance of owning one of these badges but like Jon, I'll stick to the official 1st pattern BO. Each collector has their own comfort level.

[chen]

Me too.

[TxGauleiter]

Until I see period proof, I will reject these as fantasy. Show me a pic of period wear, or mention of it in period materials.

• I am not comfortable with the aesthetics of the award. I don't find the lazy, amateurish shaped nature of the lions in front of or the figures inside of the Feldherrnhalle in keeping with high National Socialist standards or the esteem of the occasion this badge is meant to commemorate. The hokey bird, the goofy legs, and the lack of clutching talons all look subpar in comparison to other highly regarded awards. It doesn't look like National Socialist art. It doesn't even look like a National Socialist eagle. It is reminiscent of the Birdshead Dagger eagle mentality. Fakers commonly express through their products a thought process that any ol' bird, if in the context of a swastika, should pass as a 3rd Reich eagle.

• Even if this was a National Socialist design (I doubt it) the execution of the badge and its poor detail further suggest to me post 45 production. Compare the crispness of the familiar Blood Order with the cartoonish liberties taken with this one. And this is meant to communicate the reverence and esteem of the Blood Order, arguably the highest NSDAP award?

This is being promoted as a prototype Blood Order. I can easily accept that the Blood Order's design may have evolved. But in the era, there certainly exists the possibility that the Blood Order would not have evolved. If it hadn't evolved into what it became, then the examples we see here would have remained the Blood Order. It is easy to accept that the BO's design may have changed, what I find hard to accept is that the quality disparity is so great. If we didn't ultimately get the Blood Order we know, then comparing them wouldn't be possible, which means we might not find fault with the prototype. But we have the well known and unquestionable BO, and in comparing them, the disparity in design and execution is too vast to ignore.

What this badge does have going for it is the fact that they are so uncommon, although a clever faker would deliberately underproduce them.

In closing, mystery and rarity do not equal authenticity to me, and so while I am open to ultimately being proven wrong, I do not believe these to be genuine to the 3rd Reich.

[Tony T-S]

The example that began the thread fits in very well with the other awards on the remains of the uniform. It really may have been a first attempt (not prototype) for the group around Hitler. Who knows. The grouping remains fantastic. I would be very careful about fakes as it would be very easy to fake a very rare award that has no official status, where as the BO itself is far easier to identify as genuine or not. Each to their area.

[Richard]

Until I see period proof, I will reject these as fantasy. Show me a pic of period wear, or mention of it in period materials.

• I am not comfortable with the aesthetics of the award. I don't find the lazy, amateurish shaped nature of the lions in front of or the figures inside of the Feldherrnhalle in keeping with high National Socialist standards or the esteem of the occasion this badge is meant to commemorate. The hokey bird, the goofy legs, and the lack of clutching talons all look subpar in comparison to other highly regarded awards. It doesn't look like National Socialist art. It doesn't even look like a National Socialist eagle. It is reminiscent of the Birdshead Dagger eagle mentality. Fakers commonly express through their products a thought process that any ol' bird, if in the context of a swastika, should pass as a 3rd Reich eagle.

• Even if this was a National Socialist design (I doubt it) the execution of the badge and its poor detail further suggest to me post 45 production. Compare the crispness of the familiar Blood Order with the cartoonish liberties taken with this one. And this is meant to communicate the reverence and esteem of the Blood Order, arguably the highest NSDAP award?

This is being promoted as a prototype Blood Order. I can easily accept that the Blood Order's design may have evolved. But in the era, there certainly exists the possibility that the Blood Order would not have evolved. If it hadn't evolved into what it became, then the examples we see here would have remained the Blood Order. It is easy to accept that the BO's design may have changed, what I find hard to accept is that the quality disparity is so great. If we didn't ultimately get the Blood Order we know, then comparing them wouldn't be possible, which means we might not find fault with the prototype. But we have the well known and unquestionable BO, and in comparing them, the disparity in design and execution is too vast to ignore.

What this badge does have going for it is the fact that they are so uncommon, although a clever faker would deliberately underproduce them.

In closing, mystery and rarity do not equal authenticity to me, and so while I am open to ultimately being proven wrong, I do not believe these to be genuine to the 3rd Reich.

I have to agree with you here. The bird is a stick figure turkey, the lions look like sheep that went through a wind tunnel and the lack of any detail on the cartoonish looking figures in the Feldherrnhalle, which is pretty darn good on the accepted BO, is just not in line with what is purported to be a first run of one of the highest of awards for party members. The depiction of the Feldherrnhalle is also different than on the BO. The one on this badge lacks the four parapets at the top which, to me, is a serious omission. Also, what is the round object the eagle is holding in his talons which appears no where else on anything having to do with November 9, 1923?

It is also interesting to note the 1923 and 1933 dates on the wreath whereas the 1933 date (or 1934 when it was produced) is no where present on the official BO. It is as if this was some type of commemorative badge which signified a 10 year anniversary rather than a significant award given for participation in an event at a specific date. The significant November 9 date isn't even placed on the face of the badge but is left to be engraved on the rear. The BO wasn't even created until 1934 so what purpose would this have served a year earlier other than some type of anniversary badge, especially with the dual years of 1923/1933?

Is there anything other than "I got it in a grouping", "it was in a lot", "it came from a motel buy" that gives any credence to this ever having been issued, contemplated or awarded? Are there any period publications which mention this? Any period photos which show this? I know the one that started this thread was obtained from a family with other awards but I seem to remember a thread where Bob had gotten some Maurice items from a family source but an item from the grouping was, more or less, proven to be bad. What exists to provide iron clad provenance this supposed rare (and if it was important, it would be mentioned somewhere) award was ever authorized, manufactured, awarded or worn? With something this significant and expensive, I'd want some really great provenance, paperwork, photos, paper trail or other proof this was what it is purported to be.

If this was truly as important as purported, there would be some photos of this in wear during the 1933 anniversary of the Putsch or a mention of it in period publications.
Richard V

[Richard]

Kinda. Sorry no idea as to what it went for.
cheers
Matt

The case for this badge has to be a fantasy. I've never seen any significant (or for that matter insignificant) badge housed in something that looks like a souvenir item from a holiday. For the significance this badge supposedly has, you would think they would create a case with class and dignity, not something that would sit beside the SS helmet pencil sharpener and the SA buckle bottle opener.
Richard V

[Stan]

None of these will ever be for my collection.

I'm totally with Jon here.

Stan

[Thorsten B.]

I see no reason to dismiss this first BO version as "fantasy".

[jabnus]

I see no reason to dismiss this first BO version as "fantasy".

It'a quite a strange feeling, but i might have to agree with Thorsten here.

Im also quite surprised by the reactions of some members here. By posting the images above it was not my intent to discredit these badges. We have seen this before with rare items: start a controversy about a rare badge and talk bad about it and it loses it's value. The only thing im interested in is to learn more, the groups of Bob Coleman and Bob Hritz are soem of the most interesting items on the forum. My first reaction when seeing the image with the 990 silver mark in different position was one of great surprise and i felt it was needed to share it. Also the other known examples seem to have strange details on the reverse. The question is: do fake examples exist? And which are those?

[Richard]

I see no reason to dismiss this first BO version as "fantasy".

Thorston, I also don't see any reason, in the absence of any solid evidence, to immediately and without question, accept it as real.

I'm not calling the badge a fantasy, though I believe otherwise about the etui in which the recently sold badge came. I have serious doubts that any highly revered badge of the NSDAP would be presented in a case made to resemble a hat that opens up. That would most likely be something used in a souvenir context not as a presentation for an important badge.

The badge itself is something, much like Jon and Stan, I have not desire to have in my collection. Too many questions surround it, much of it to do with the actual execution of the badge. The eagle faces left when most anything to do with the Feldherrnhalle/Putsch, such as the Mahnmal eagle, have the eagles facing right. The Feldnherrnhalle is incorrectly executed, the figures in the Feldherrnhalle lack detail and the lions look extremely poorly executed.

Has this badge become accepted as the "other" 1st type Blood Order by some empirical, written or photographic documentation or only because it has a depiction of the Feldherrnhalle and the engraved date of 9 November on the rear? If we take the obverse in context, one would be inclined to view this as some type of commemorative of the 10 year anniversary not unlike a tinnie for such an event. It is the rear that gives it the extra push to be accepted as something more as those that have surfaced, were engraved with the November 9 date and, so far, with the names of Putsch Participants.

It is not my intent to disparage this badge but to have an honest discussion to determine originality, intent and purpose of this item. When did the first one appear on the scene? Was the one that started this thread obtained directly from the family or from someone else who obtained it directly from the family and how close a family member to the original recipient sold this off? In other words, what is the chain of provenance? How many of these are currently known? Is there any empirical data, period references, photographic evidence of these existing prior to 1945? What has caused this to be accepted as a precursor to the BO rather than some type of commemorative piece for the 10 year anniversary? Why have we seen so far fewer of these than the 1st model BO? When something such as this appears and commands the kind of money it does, if I were a buyer, I'd try to do some serious research before dropping that kind of coin.
Richard V

[Richard]

It'a quite a strange feeling, but i might have to agree with Thorsten here.

Im also quite surprised by the reactions of some members here. By posting the images above it was not my intent to discredit these badges. We have seen this before with rare items: start a controversy about a rare badge and talk bad about it and it loses it's value. The only thing im interested in is to learn more, the groups of Bob Coleman and Bob Hritz are soem of the most interesting items on the forum. My first reaction when seeing the image with the 990 silver mark in different position was one of great surprise and i felt it was needed to share it. Also the other known examples seem to have strange details on the reverse. The question is: do fake examples exist? And which are those?

Gaston, it is not my intent to discredit the badge but, through honest discussion and investigation, determine its originality. What do we have that gives us total confidence this badge was actually made, issued and presented pre 1945? The two Bobs have some of the most amazing collections around and I have learned much from both of them by their contributions to this forum and items they have posted. One must be prepared when something surfaces of great rarity which is surrounded by questions on its origin, meaning and significance to have it discussed. Surely something which many consider so significant must have some reference to it pre 1945?
Richard V

[Bob Hritz]

Gaston, it is not my intent to discredit the badge but, through honest discussion and investigation, determine its originality. What do we have that gives us total confidence this badge was actually made, issued and presented pre 1945? The two Bobs have some of the most amazing collections around and I have learned much from both of them by their contributions to this forum and items they have posted. One must be prepared when something surfaces of great rarity which is surrounded by questions on its origin, meaning and significance to have it discussed. Surely something which many consider so significant must have some reference to it pre 1945?
Richard V

Sometimes we just luck into a period photo of an item. I hope this is the case someday. I recall that only a few years ago we finally found a period photo of the Luftwaffe flier's commemorative badge being worn. We have sought to find a photo like this for decades, even though the badges were in many collections.

I do not encourage anyone to collect what they do not like or lack faith in. There are many other wonderful pieces that are fully documented. However, there is little to argue with such little period information. I can only go on the Email Maurice letter that explains this badge. To my knowledge, there is no further information.

Had I had the resources, I would have been a buyer for every example that has surfaced. I think there is much more to be learned and only hope I live to see this knowledge revealed.

Bob Hritz

Bob Hritz