The OTHER 1st Type Blood Order

[Richard]

Sometimes we just luck into a period photo of an item. I hope this is the case someday. I recall that only a few years ago we finally found a period photo of the Luftwaffe flier's commemorative badge being worn. We have sought to find a photo like this for decades, even though the badges were in many collections.

I do not encourage anyone to collect what they do not like or lack faith in. There are many other wonderful pieces that are fully documented. However, there is little to argue with such little period information. I can only go on the Email Maurice letter that explains this badge. To my knowledge, there is no further information.

Had I had the resources, I would have been a buyer for every example that has surfaced. I think there is much more to be learned and only hope I live to see this knowledge revealed.

Bob Hritz

Bob Hritz

Wise words as always Bob. I had not read any information on the Maurice letter, though it sounds like a great start. Who is in possession of the letter and can it be posted here?

Some suspected as fakes for years, such as the enameled badge with a plane attributed to female auxiliaries in aircraft observation (I think that's what they were attributed to), had photos surface to prove they actually existed. It was much the same as the retired pilot's badge and probably several others. Who knows with certainty if what is actually being sold as fake may turn out to be real and vice versa? Learning is certainly a tool of necessity in this hobby.

As the prices become magnets for reproduction artists, this hobby becomes even more difficult and our learning never stops. It is truly fortunate when anything of the period surfaces to provide a context of originality to what we collect.
Richard V

[Richard]

It'a quite a strange feeling, but i might have to agree with Thorsten here.

Im also quite surprised by the reactions of some members here. By posting the images above it was not my intent to discredit these badges. We have seen this before with rare items: start a controversy about a rare badge and talk bad about it and it loses it's value. The only thing im interested in is to learn more, the groups of Bob Coleman and Bob Hritz are soem of the most interesting items on the forum. My first reaction when seeing the image with the 990 silver mark in different position was one of great surprise and i felt it was needed to share it. Also the other known examples seem to have strange details on the reverse. The question is: do fake examples exist? And which are those?

No one wants to start a controversy without reason, Gaston, sometimes controversy starts when something new appears from the woodwork that doesn't fit the current state of knowledge. You should also not be surprised at the reactions of members when something unknown pops up and research needs to be done to help authenticate an item. The question should not be do fake examples exist, but rather are these relatively new introductions to the collecting world real? It is always an invitation to discussion and, in many cases opinions fly when knowledge, research and documentation should take precedent.

Everyone should want to gain knowledge to know what is real and what is not. Education and research are the only tools that prevent us from being fools with our money. I have seen badges discredited but due to big names behind them, they never lose value. Like the X-files, some people just want to believe it is out there and are willing to accept certain individual's testimonials as proof of authenticity. No one can know it all. People follow big names rather than research and choose to believe what they wish. Their dollars follow their belief rather than their knowledge and eventually what was not true becomes so.

This hobby is fraught more with fakes and forgeries than almost any other. Others have third party services (for coins, comics, baseball cards, etc.) which provide grading and authentication with a backing of value to keep the hobby from sinking to a level where innuendo and rumor dictate authenticity. This was a result of dealers taking advantage of customers to the extent the hobby began to get a bad reputation and collectors felt cheated and abused. Our hobby could use this too but it would be difficult to implement and most of the collecting world cares less about Third Reich.

Additionally many of the experts in our hobby have a vested financial interest to keep the status quo. "Prove to me it is fake" is the watchword rather than "prove to me it is real". The onus is on the buyer and collector to know fake from real and never or rarely on the dealer to provide anything of substance to ensure originality.

Most of the literature in the collecting world states to only buy from reputable dealers. However I am unaware of any dealer that has not been discovered to have sold something which was not real. The true measure in our hobby, since no one can know everything, is how they treat you when you wish to return an item due to authenticity issues. Others, such as the two Bobs, have a depth of knowledge and a great amount of integrity which would prevent them from knowingly touting an item as authentic when it is not. It is sad most dealers don't share this integrity.

Richard V

[ErichS]

Richard,

Don't forget that the MAX has a board of experts that you can send an item to for authentication

[Military]

Bob,

With all due respect, you're recognised as one of the top collectors, but just a question for all - how can we also be sure that the period photo itself is also not faked? With the advent of Photoshop and computer CGI, I'm sure it would be fairly easy to superimpose a fake badge onto a real period photo showing the soldier and then printing the photo onto artificially aged paper with superfluous studio stamps on the reverse and give it some water stains and creases?

I guess it depends on what one is seeking - rarity at the cost of the end of the spectrum with an artefact that is unproven, or to go for the safer and most sound route like textbook pieces, or here in such instance, a first pattern BO that cannot go wrong.

Mil

Sometimes we just luck into a period photo of an item. I hope this is the case someday. I recall that only a few years ago we finally found a period photo of the Luftwaffe flier's commemorative badge being worn. We have sought to find a photo like this for decades, even though the badges were in many collections.

Bob Hritz

[Richard]

Richard,

Don't forget that the MAX has a board of experts that you can send an item to for authentication

Can Erich, can one assume the smiley face is due to the fact all of the board have a monetary vested interest in authenticating certain items while rejecting others? Also will they provide some type of documentation that will allow the item to trade as authentic among all other dealers with no questions asked once given the MAX stamp of approval?
Richard V

[ErichS]

Can Erich, can one assume the smiley face is due to the fact all of the board have a monetary vested interest in authenticating certain items while rejecting others? Also will they provide some type of documentation that will allow the item to trade as authentic among all other dealers with no questions asked once given the MAX stamp of approval?
Richard V

Correct and I was being sarcastic of course.

[ErichS]

Personally I'm not sure if these badges are pre or post war. That said, the major issue I have is that an impeccable jewelry designer like Fuess would design a badge with such poor details and only a year later would live up to their reputation and design a medal with the great detail that we would expect coming from that firm.

[Tony T-S]

I wonder why the front of one of these becomes the rear of the standard medal? The eagle is intriguing as it's head has something of the look of the period cap/ hat badge, but the wings and other things mentioned really aren't up to what one would expect. Funnily enough it reminds me of the general shape of a Police badge. I don't know whether it's real or not. This is surely one of those that no one should throw out. Firm confirmation other their existence may yet come forward, and I don't think the collection at the beginning is to be dismissed out of hand as evidence either. We don't really know, lets hope we find out.

[jabnus]

Agree with most of what is said above. What i like though is that both Bob Hritz and Patzwall speak of the Emil Maurice letter that seems to confirm the existence of such a badge.


What i would like to hear more of is why the 990 silver mark of appearantly the same award is in two photo's in different positions. Was this done purposely to make the fakes unaware or is there something else going on? For a better understanding AND to maybe not discredit this badge it would be nice if we got an answer to that.

My gut feeling has always been that these badges were from a period of which almost all awards were after the coming to power of the NSDAP not continued to be worn, it would actually make sense. And yes of course that is just another opinion and no hard evidence. It would be great if one day some written content would show up from 1933/34, but it seems to become one of those needles in a haystack.

One other thing that comes to mind: int his topic hs a few times been written about the high quality of the BO's and less quality of these, and although this thought is understandable, i think that even some of the most prestigous makers had some items that were of inferior quality.

[der-hase-fee]

Personally I'm not sure if these badges are pre or post war. That said, the major issue I have is that an impeccable jewelry designer like Fuess would design a badge with such poor details and only a year later would live up to their reputation and design a medal with the great detail that we would expect coming from that firm.

Curious how you came up with the timeline on the design/fabrication of the badge ? One year before the medal would make it second half on 1932 or so.

The badge would predate the medal only by a few months. Remember the "Und Ihr habt doch gesiegt" slogan came into use only first quarter of 1933.

[der-hase-fee]

repeat post

[TxGauleiter]

That case is beyond questionable as well.

Under the lid, you can make out "Ges Gesch" which I don't believe would be printed in such a visible place for an official award. I don't recall seeing this on other 3rd Reich presentation cases.

Also, sticking an eagle and swastika on the outside seems like a lazy way to 'sell' authenticity. Again, I don't recall seeing such a thoughtless touch as gluing an eagle to the side on an official award before.

As mentioned before, the umlauts don't match on the side by side shot of the rear, and the 'S' and "C" don't match. I could see a case why that is possible, and also not possible. However, one doesn't find this type of discrepancy on GPB engravings.

[Jo Rivett]

A good alternative to owning this/these prototype(s), would be - a severe dose of leprosy.

[Richard]

That case is beyond questionable as well.

Under the lid, you can make out "Ges Gesch" which I don't believe would be printed in such a visible place for an official award. I don't recall seeing this on other 3rd Reich presentation cases.

Also, sticking an eagle and swastika on the outside seems like a lazy way to 'sell' authenticity. Again, I don't recall seeing such a thoughtless touch as gluing an eagle to the side on an official award before.

As mentioned before, the umlauts don't match on the side by side shot of the rear, and the 'S' and "C" don't match. I could see a case why that is possible, and also not possible. However, one doesn't find this type of discrepancy on GPB engravings.

I don't know if you noticed but it isn't just an eagle stuck to the outside of the case, the case is actually in the shape of an SA kepi, hence my reference to this looking like a kitschy souvenir and not an official presentation case.
Richard V

[Bob Hritz]

I don't think the case is a presentation case, but just a very nice mini kepi box that the badge was kept in. I have seen Imperial hats and helmets mini boxes, but this is the first TR mini headgear box. It is very pretty, but I cannot comment further about it because I lack the knowledge.

Bob Hritz