Post your unknown unit and or tactical emblem photos

[Akira Takiguchi]

Schmitz/Thies is the most comprehensive source but its contents are of mixed quality.

The emblem has been known as such for quite some time I think, thanks to the period photos like this. It's the first time I saw it in color though.

[augustdieter]

Hi,

thanks to Akira for the photo that the third variant of the TKZ 25.Pz.Div.
occupied. The variation may be related to the third reorganization in Denmark.

Also Thanks to Mark for the color photo !

[Akira Takiguchi]

Dieter, though I am not 100% sure but as Mark says the stars may be 6-pointed, not 5-pointed. My photos are not clear enough to tell it.

[augustdieter]

Hi Akira,

no problem six-pointet stars. Mark will tell us what shape fits.

[mark67]

Dieter, just correct starce placement on the shield

[augustdieter]

Hi Mark,

the road to the goal is a bit bumpy but we make it

[Alanmccoubrey]

Thanks Mark. Is the GD photograph dated ? I'd love to know when they changed the sign for the Pz. A. A.

[Alanmccoubrey]

Here are the photos.

This is the one that was sent to the Armor School Museum which eventually became the Patton Museum. I have enlarged the area with the tactical sign and inserted into the photo. I have worked with it in Photoshop to help with clarity.
http://armorfortheages.com/PMmarderII.jpg

This is the one sent to Aberdeen Proving Grounds. The area is also enlarged though not as clear.
http://armorfortheages.com/APGmarderII.jpg

They were collected from a vehicle collection point after the war in either southern Czechoslovakia or Austria. They are both from the same recon battalion but I would like to determine which division. LAH and 1st PD seem logical, but there were no division insignias evident in the photos.

Thanks,
Garry

Garry, I have been thinking that perhaps this particular unit had this Marder II in place of the SdKfz 251/22 which was equipped with the same gun !

[mark67]

Thanks Mark. Is the GD photograph dated ? I'd love to know when they changed the sign for the Pz. A. A.

No, but it comes from was whole series of their Ausf.B vehicles on e-bay, that appeared to be done during the training on brand new half-tracks, so a can only guess that they did it some time 1944.

[Alanmccoubrey]

Mark, your reply prompted me to check just when GD was issued the Neu/Ausf B 250's and it appears from Martin Block's listing that they only ever received 13 of the new type and that was in December 1944.

While I was checking the various issue lists I saw that 1 PD was issued 9 x Marder II SdKfz 131 starting in October 1944 with the final six being sent in January 1945.

These two facts would suggest that this change of tactical sign was very late indeed.

[mark67]

These two facts would suggest that this change of tactical sign was very late indeed.

It fits to recovered recently vehicle from Pz.A.A.25 as well - it sunk around 16-17 January 1945.

[Lennard]

Pak 40

Hi Alan ,

In one of the previous posts above you mentioned that both the Marder and the 251 carried the same gun, so in effect were "the same".

This is the correct way of looking at this situation of different vehicle types, as both vehicles were, regardless of what they actually looked like, both self propelled 7,5 Anti- Tank guns.

At this late date in WWII both vehicles met the requirement of the PzAA KStN OOB, and it did not matter one bit that one was fullly tracked and one was half-tracked, they both fitted the requirement of the KStN.

Its the same with the Luchs that was also mentionedon another site, it may be fully tracked, and look like a tank, but its an armoured car (Panzerspaehwagen II) and was used as such in PzAA's.

Have seen the Panzer Romboid tactical sign on other PzAA vehicles besides PzAAGD and PzAA25, but cannot find the photos at the moment or remember the PzAA units.

This "panzer type" tactical marking is early 1945 from other research sources, but all situations can occur, have seen a VW166 from SSPzAA3 that at the time of its surrender in 1945, was carrying the tactical sign of a motorcycle unit, the "cartwheel" that was already about two years out of date for May 1945.

A very interesting subject, but anything goes.

cheers lennard

[Garry Redmon]

A friend of mine that researches the location of Axis and Allied units during the war offered this bit of information. On January 1, 1944, the LAH recon battalion "was reported to include six 75mm Pak (SP) and one 50mm Pak (SP)" I have seen photos and read about Marder IIs being field-modified with the Pak 38. It doesn't necessarily mean that these vehicles were Marder IIs, but just the fact that seven SPs were serving in the recon battalion is interesting.

[mark67]

Have seen the Panzer Romboid tactical sign on other PzAA vehicles besides PzAAGD and PzAA25, but cannot find the photos at the moment or remember the PzAA units.

I found it on photo of Sd.Kfz.233 from Pz.A.A.14 from Holger Erdmann Collection. There are probably more examples around. We can start to collect usage of them here

[Lennard]

7,5cm pak

Hi Garry,

The heavy company of any Panzer Aufkl Abt, which would be the 5th Kp at the 1st January 1944 date you mention when PzAA were the Type 43 organisation, is meant to have 3 or 4 towed Pak 40 as standard equipment.

Having Marder II may be unusual but they meet the OOB requirement for having Pak 40's in that type of unit.

It does not matter one bit whether they were towed, SP half tracked or SP fully tracked, they met the requirement, but of course most Pak 40 were towed and the SdKfz 251/4 was used for this purpose in 99% of instances..

cheers lennard