INTERNATIONAL MEDAL COLLECTOR - Magazine for all !

[Jody]

Magazine

Hello,
Are the 4 935 RKs good too? I never doubted the 800 4 RKs. I guess I will have to wait and read the article.

Jody

[Dietrich Maerz]

Bob, it is great when what we already knew from direct veteran experience is backed up in print. I guess I can sleep better tonight, ha ha!

I sense some sarcasm here. So please allow me to explain why I personally think it is important to be put in print. And the proof it is also from a veteran. But this time the story fits.

I remember very well the time when tons of (post 800-4 or 935-4) B-Types came from veterans and were sold by nearly all dealers. Unfortunately this created some of the unclarity in the hobby. Only when the next generation took out to look at things with a more rational and scientific approach some of the "hotel buys' could be proven wrong and some could be proven good.

So there is actually a self-made dilemma by the ones "who always knew it" (people taking part in this thread excluded, of course ...) since a lot of what was good based on vet-buys wasn't so good when looked at under closer inspection. So who decides? The dealer or the researcher?

So, naturally and quite predictably, the "I got it from a veteran" turned nearly 180 degrees. From a very good and solid fact to a overused argument for selling fakes. I got a ton of vet buys for the Rounder and other fakes.

To sum it up: to put it in print now from researchers and people with no monetary interest is a necessity. A necessity born out of the misuse of the very nice source of vet- and hotel buys by dealers!

And - by the way - this is only (for me at least) the very last indication in a long series of facts and research. And no piece of that puzzle has a "Believe me I know it is good!" in it.

Dietrich

PS: Case in point will be the L/12 article. This is NOT the L/12 (one of the three or four) Mr. Niemann got from Vets and other "good as rain" sources .......

[Dietrich Maerz]

Hello,
Are the 4 935 RKs good too? I never doubted the 800 4 RKs. I guess I will have to wait and read the article.
Jody

Jody,

for me there was never a doubt in the 935-4 because I had several believable and documented Klessheim finds. (Please note: Klessheim find, NOT vet buys of the general kind ...). They were documented before the B-Type existence was known (and also before it was known what a "4" means and when it appeared on a RK....). This was (for me) all missing for the 800-4 . Sure, vet buys galore. Sure, awardees galore from early days (PKZ number!!!) and in Normany (oh, the famous Normandy awardees!).
Now If I would have put everything I heard and 'learned' from everybody and his brother in my RK book it would be as full of mistakes as all the other ones are by now. Thanks heavens that is not the case and the only correction up to today is in the area of the 800-4 - a cross who will not be encountered by many anyway. I can live with that and it is always better to err on the side of caution than to include every tale and every assumption.

Dietrich

[Leroy]

So is that the substance of the new findings then?

That is pretty big news, isn't it?

Yes, Trevor, it is. And the people who always said they were good, and based their conclusions either on their own personal vet finds or their hard-earned knowledge of what a real RK should look like (or both) have been vindicated.

The problem in this hobby is that dishonest persons have cast such a huge shadow over what we collect that very few people know anymore what can be trusted and what can't. Dietrich, to his credit, is trying to create a foolproof "safety net" for collectors. This can be, however, extremely frustrating and sometimes very hurtful to the people who feel that their experience and knowledge is "parked to the side" while this process is taking place, or, worse, viciously assaulted by a chorus of cynics and "hangers-on" who, quite bluntly, don't know what they are talking about and who have never contributed anything of value to this hobby (and who never will). The saving grace for Dietrich is that he willing (although slowly and based on standards some people "choke on") to expand his views and keep looking. He is contributing and the "process' he personally follows is continuing.

There is no "rule" that says we all have to approach things the same way Dietrich does. It works for some and not for others. The only important thing is that, eventually, the truth emerges. And it will, so long as people are willing to fight for it and keep looking for it. It might be messy, it might be stressful and hard-fought, but so what?

[Jody]

Magazine

Jody,

for me there was never a doubt in the 935-4 because I had several believable and documented Klessheim finds. (Please note: Klessheim find, NOT vet buys of the general kind ...). They were documented before the B-Type existence was known (and also before it was known what a "4" means and when it appeared on a RK....). This was (for me) all missing for the 800-4 . Sure, vet buys galore. Sure, awardees galore from early days (PKZ number!!!) and in Normany (oh, the famous Normandy awardees!).
Now If I would have put everything I heard and 'learned' from everybody and his brother in my RK book it would be as full of mistakes as all the other ones are by now. Thanks heavens that is not the case and the only correction up to today is in the area of the 800-4 - a cross who will not be encountered by many anyway. I can live with that and it is always better to err on the side of caution than to include every tale and every assumption.

Dietrich

Hi Dietrich,
Thank you. I may be selling my RK one day, and I would not want any problems when trying to sell it.

Regards,
Jody

[George L]

Glad to see someone is finally covering the SC's as there hasn't been anything in-depth done on them yet!!

PS Love to hear that the dotted DK's are finally getting their respect as I always believed they were good! I remember having that debate with Tom H on here, and would love to see him eating crow now.

[George Stimson]

George L

Thanks! We realized that about Spanish Crosses too!

[Ron Weinand]

My comment concerned the dot pattern German Cross. Also, I have bought from 3rd ID veterans who were at Schloss Klessheim ( 4 different ones ) and have attended the reunion of the signal battalion of the 3rd ID who were stationed there from the capture and were a good source for medals for me, many of which I still have in my collection.

[streptile]

Hi Gentry,

Thanks for your detailed reply. For someone (like me) who doesn't follow or comprehend the minutiae of the various and overlapping S&L debates and theories, it can get confusing. You've said a lot of interest to me and, I imagine, to others.

Dietrich,

I recall, when I was just starting to collect, there was mass confusion surrounding the L/12 RK. Someone had (deliberately? I don't recall) spread confusion about them. I don't remember much -- I've never paid much attention because it's not my field. But I think a lot of folks sold theirs during that time. I guess it just goes to show that our knowledge is always evolving, right?

I think the subject of the 800/4 deserves a thread of its own. I won't be the one to start it since I'm not really an RK guy, but I'm sure it would draw some interest.

An interesting subject to be sure.

[Dietrich Maerz]

My comment concerned the dot pattern German Cross.

The case with the dotted was not quite as dramatical. However, it must be said that up until maybe a year or so ago, nobody in Germany on the fora nor in "advanced" some collector circles knew about the existence of a dotted nor had they ever seen one. The very few which were sold by Niemann were sold as Zimmermann and not as 'dotted' Zimmermann.

And it was again the same case: no awardees, none found in Germany (same with the 800-4 ...) from any veteran, none in the literature. Completely inknown! Only the 'crazy Amis" had them and behind every cross was a super story .... Combined with what was known about these pieces several years ago (namely only "stories") NOT a very convincing case. And I say it again and again: some of the dealers known to sell all kind of crazy things with the seal of a "veteran buy" made this identification avenue a very, very murky one. It is NOT the fault of us collectors that in this case a mans word is no longer what it once was! Too many burned people!

So, as Gentry correctly said, we have to go the hard way, which is also the longer but the safer way. I would prefer to live in a world were every word from every collector and dealer is 100% true ....

Dietrich

[Bob Hritz]

So, as Gentry correctly said, we have to go the hard way, which is also the longer but the safer way. I would prefer to live in a world were every word from every collector and dealer is 100% true ....

Dietrich

I completely agree!

Bob Hritz

[Leroy]

There is no doubt that greedy and crooked dealers (and greedy and crooked collectors) have created the atmosphere Dietrich has mentioned.

And as much as it may have been a normal reaction for those who owned 800-4's, from vets they knew, to have been offended by them being called "postwar", you cannot tell me that it is not a real comfort to have confirmation of originality now documented in a way which will be acceptable to everyone.

[Biro]

?....you cannot tell me that it is not a real comfort to have confirmation of originality now documented in a way which will be acceptable to everyone...

Hi Gentry

I sincerely hope that the discovery is in fact monumental enough to make the 800-4 acceptable to everyone and justify that claim "confirmation of originality", because if it is another Klessheim find, then without a significant point of difference from the many we have heard about over the years, it's basically still just another story is it not?

I'm thoroughly intrigued and can't wait to get my hands on a copy of the article.

My fingers are crossed for all 800-4 owners that Dietrichs discovery can truly be proclaimed 'definitive' and not just simply 'speculative' by the current non-believers.

Marshall

[Leroy]

Marshall - Everything in this hobby, as far as provenance is concerned, goes back to just a "story". Some have decided, however, that it is safer to believe some stories than others.

Personally, I believed my neighbor, the combat veteran and friend of my family, who gave me my 800-4 in 1958.

But what do I know?

[Dietrich Maerz]

Without any intention of starting something but there is a huge difference between a genuine and untouched Klessheim find and something that was given to someone in 1958, 13 years after the war. This is even more significant when when it is in connection with a medal where it is already known that the distance between good and bad might be several month or maybe one year.

Not every find is a genuine Klessheim find, not ever Knights Cross was awarded as stated (and it is known that I also had and have some problem with some Knights Crosses a Hamburg dealer elected to use to complete some groups).

Everything is based on a believe system. The question is only where and when the OWN believe kicks in. With some earlier, with some later, with some never. And the overall beauty of all is this: nobody needs to buy a 800-4 or anything else he does not believe in!

Dietrich