Juncker core dates...opinions please

[Douglas 5]

For clarification of the last picture , here are the - 3 - W&L core types used for identifcation :

Douglas

[Douglas 5]

Merged both charts - Robert's chart updated :

Douglas

[HuD]

What a job guys, that's really interesting and useful too... I realized i should have a number 7 (3rd type) with a W&L frame.
Am i right?
Stefano

[Douglas 5]

Sorry not correct :
Have a good look again at the : 2 Juncker core chart , ... It is a nice Juncker 1st core .
Well defined tear drop cut-outs , even 1 - not short and the tad low sitting last 9 .
Are you sure it is in a W&L frame ???
Douglas

[HuD]

my gosh no... but i am posting a picture of the EK to let you better identify it.
Stefano

[HuD]

and yes Douglas i have seen the 2 Juncker chart, the first type, it really looks like the one i have. Many thanks,
Stefano

[Douglas 5]

Your core is actualy in a Juncker frame and not a W&L one .

Douglas

[Roglebk]

Took me some time to realize that the core in post 7 do not belong in this thread because the frames on that cross is not the 'Juncker 3 flaws frames'. All other cores in this thread are from crosses with those frames. Tried to find a pic that shows those flaws but no luck, there is just too many matches on threads with 'Juncker' in them. Can any of you enlighten me and post a pic showing those typical '3 flawed frames'? Guess that the knowledge of those '3 flaws frames' comes from proved L/12 marked crosses, otherwise there would be no way of telling if they really are Juncker made?

Regarding the issue that the #1 and the #4 core are a different die i really do not know what to think. Biggest but for the "same die theory" is imo the wawy pattern on the back of the number 1 on the #1 core that the #4 do not have. All other things are imo a perfect match between the 2 cores and small differencies can be explained by die wear and photo lighting.

Douglas & Robert, i have 3 'Juncker frame type' crosses that all have different frames. Have a major photo session coming up, is there any particular part of the crosses that is more important to get extreme closeups on? Would be nice to be able to help in your quest for "Juncker truth"

Edit: Is the best way of photographing numbers to have the light source as head on as possible to get rid of those bad shadows? Sometimes it's very hard to compare shots of cores due to different angles of lighting used when taking the pics.

[Robert P.]

Took me some time to realize that the core in post 7 do not belong in this thread because the frames on that cross is not the 'Juncker 3 flaws frames'. All other cores in this thread are from crosses with those frames. Tried to find a pic that shows those flaws but no luck, there is just too many matches on threads with 'Juncker' in them. Can any of you enlighten me and post a pic showing those typical '3 flawed frames'? Guess that the knowledge of those '3 flaws frames' comes from proved L/12 marked crosses, otherwise there would be no way of telling if they really are Juncker made?

Regarding the issue that the #1 and the #4 core are a different die i really do not know what to think. Biggest but for the "same die theory" is imo the wawy pattern on the back of the number 1 on the #1 core that the #4 do not have. All other things are imo a perfect match between the 2 cores and small differencies can be explained by die wear and photo lighting.

Douglas & Robert, i have 3 'Juncker frame type' crosses that all have different frames. Have a major photo session coming up, is there any particular part of the crosses that is more important to get extreme closeups on? Would be nice to be able to help in your quest for "Juncker truth"

Photo lighting on my date examples is exactly the same - a ring light. Here is an example of a Juncker 3-flaw frame with the areas of flaws circled.

[Roglebk]

Thanks Robert for the '3 die flaw' pic! A ring light must be optimal when taking close ups on numbers, makes the light come from all around and from the same distance (angle) every time. I see different thickness on the shadows in comparing the #1 and #4 core, is one of them a deeper strike? Could the different thickness of top of the 3 be because the paint is gone on one of them? When comparing numbers i think a 'millimeter sqare grid' on top of the pic would make it easier to see and compare different heights, size of balls, straightness of top, thickness and other things. Tried to search for a digital grid that could be applied over a pic but no luck.

[Douglas 5]

Hi Carl ;
Juncker frame type is a common used phrase , ...W&L and Juncker have destintly identifiable frames . There are reworked Juncker and W&L frames which have not be presented yet .

To present Core type D properly full front and side pictures are a must . This core with the wavy top 3 is rare and very unique . This core being on a 39 made EK2 is actually Junckers 1st core - establishing an early work connection with S&L . Notice the 'slit eye' 9 feature that strongly sugests along with the same 'ball layout' ( the ball on the 3 being a bit higher than the 9s)- the core being made and supplied by Steinhauer and Lu'ck . The same engravers finger prints !
No rust on the core ... a few spots indicating copper plating .
Full front view with unique appearing frosting do to the high copper content .

Douglas

[Douglas 5]

The side view realy shows at this angle the masive Swastika ! This cross is also the one that has/had the company name stamped on the soft ribbon ring .

[Douglas 5]

And a true scale side by side comparison with a regulas full Juncker EK2 and other interesting features .

Douglas

[Douglas 5]

The clue to why we have a hard time finding these is in the reverse side date .
A new core die that is prematurly desintergrading in the first month or months ? Note also the strange slightly blunt /but still pointy top on the 3( half way between realy pointy and W&L blunt) and the sharp crisp number detail - absolutly no die wear ! One monster crack (between first 1 and 9) and 4 small ones ... a few hundred stikes maybe .. who knows . A 'gonner' almost from the start which had to force Juncker to make their own totaly different core .... the Tear Drop 9 type 1 which is found on early Juncker crosses .

Douglas

[Douglas 5]

In determining the Juncker core type - besides using the dates - the Swastikas are all slightly different as well . Not used sofar , just to show a picture Robert had made and sent me , that shows this feature very nicely !

Douglas