Cased 800 4 Knights Cross grouping!

[Leroy]

There goes another Vet story ....

Dietrich

Robert,
I am happy to see you respond so quickly to this. Can you please expand on the information provided by the son concerning his father? It is very important, I think, to clarify and confirm this.
Best,
Leroy

[RobertE]

Jay, both the auction house owner and his wife are standing by to clarify the relationship between the seller (Phillip, son) and the vet (LtCol, vet). They don't know who you are, or why you would state such a thing. Please feel free to add to the thread after speaking with them. s/f Robert

[cjs dad]

maine auction

jay

not the story i got from the auctioneer either, and not the one he had both on his website and in print. i asked him directly the source of the lots, he told me they were from the vets son, not a picker.

[JAYP]

Robert, Im not trying to stir up any trouble, Im just conveying what I heard. I called my friend and he said the auctioneer was not too sure of anything when he first called him. He did say the guy it came from was the vet's son, apparently this Vet's son had done some work for the auctioneer in the past. Whatever the case, my friend was not able to get emailed pictures of the medals. All I know is what I was told and it sounds like this guy may be telling the truth...who the heck knows, he's an auctioneer. My buddy did end up buying the EK's which are all VERY VERY late war.

Best
Jay

[Leroy]

This is a pretty lame way to discredit something........

The important point here is: can the vet's service times (and places) be verified and can it be confirmed that he brought these back and didn't acquire them later?
Leroy

[Bill W.]

This is a pretty lame way to discredit something........

The important point here is: can the vet's service times (and places) be verified and can it be confirmed that he brought these back and didn't acquire them later?
Leroy

I would guess that the answer to both those questions would be "no". I think that instead of discrediting a thread, it just points out that the facts are pretty weak. Too bad they aren't like guns and have some capture papers. That would be pretty handy.

[Dave Kane]

Leroy, you must be willing to take some if you put some out....

This really isn't helpful and indeed is a bit rediculous;

German vet: "This is my original cross. I sent it to my sister for safekeeping right after the ceremony and bought (even though I wasn't supposed to be able to do that!)another to wear everyday. The Amis got that one when I surrendered. Of course it wasn't an official one! The one I'm selling you now is the good one."

ANY and I mean any German vet I have ever chatted with, written to or otherwise communicated with was 'bitter' and didn't have fond memories. They remembered hardships, hunger and ill treatment...

Not one related 'original', 'official', 'authorized' or the like....rather complained about the food, housing and in the extreme"they even took my boots"

[RobertE]

[quote=JAYP;2668402]"Robert, Im not trying to stir up any trouble, Im just conveying what I heard."

You claimed to have spoke with the auctioneer, not heard it from a friend.

"I called my friend and he said the auctioneer was not too sure of anything when he first called him. He did say the guy it came from was the vet's son, apparently this Vet's son had done some work for the auctioneer in the past."

Thus, the auctioneer confirmed that the medals came from the veterans son to you or your friend.

"Whatever the case, my friend was not able to get emailed pictures of the medals. All I know is what I was told and it sounds like this guy may be telling the truth...who the heck knows, he's an auctioneer. My buddy did end up buying the EK's which are all VERY VERY late war."

The EK1s are beautifully marked Godet EKs, stamped 20, and were in very nice boxes generally associated with mid-war EKs, not late.

To enter the discussion with a declarative statement regarding the facts surrounding the acquisition - when the circumstances of capture are fairly important - didn't help anyone.

The auctioneer provided me the phone number(s) for the son this evening, and I just concluded a very nice conversation with him. He will contact his sister in an attempt to find out what month his father returned. He also has boxes of letters from his father to his mother from the war years, and has agreed to look through the pertinent months for information regarding his rotation home from Germany, and perhaps the mention of the actual medals (probably a stretch, but one can hope). As the location of the captured medals is germane to the discussion, as well as when they were found, I'll share any such details as they become known.

s/f Robert

[Leroy]

Hello, Dave,
I'm afraid I must be missing your point.
I have also talked with many German vets and found them courteous and informative. Of course they had very difficult times. I'm unaware of any people in history who, having waged hard war and then being beaten and having their industrial and financial base destroyed, did not suffer. The only bitterness I have seen or heard was against their own political leaders and against captors who went out of their way to mistreat them (which sometimes happened). I have always gotten along very well with those I have met and, in fact, have actually had some as clients.
By the way, I "take some" every day and it doesn't bother me one bit. If you post here, as I said yesterday, you are fair game.
My comments were made in the context of the discussion at the time (which I don't recall you participating in until tonight).
My point, right now and in the context of the apparent dispute over the particular auction which brought this cross to the Forum, is that I would hope the information provided to us initially can be shown to be correct , and was verified, before the cross was shown. If not, then that is too bad, the real history is lost and the origins of the cross remain in doubt, which helps no one who is interested in the truth concerning these matters.
Perhaps we will learn more soon.
Leroy

P.S. While I was typing this, Robert has posted again and is showing the kind of initiative which I greatly admire. I believe we WILL learn more about this cross. I look forward to it.

[RobertE]

Leroy, I was probably not clear. Jay didn't speak with the auctioneer, but I did speak with the son, so there was a windfall from this diversion. The family have letters - and photographs - which may help determine more about the capture. I have full rank and name of the father, and a public records search shows he entered service in 1942. He had been a stenographer.

He confirmed the medals sat in a family closet with the photographs, letters, and a pair of binos. His father spoke little about the war.

What's to be determined is his unit, area of operations, and rotation timeline if it is to of value in this discussion.

s/f Robert

[Dave Kane]

Hello, Dave,
I'm afraid I must be missing your point.
I have also talked with many German vets and found them courteous and informative. Of course they had very difficult times. I'm unaware of any people in history who, having waged hard war and then being beaten and having their industrial and financial base destroyed, did not suffer. The only bitterness I have seen or heard was against their own political leaders and against captors who went out of their way to mistreat them (which sometimes happened). I have always gotten along very well with those I have met and, in fact, have actually had some as clients.
By the way, I "take some" every day and it doesn't bother me one bit. If you post here, as I said yesterday, you are fair game.
My comments were made in the context of the discussion at the time (which I don't recall you participating in until tonight).
My point, right now and in the context of the apparent dispute over the particular auction which brought this cross to the Forum, is that I would hope the information provided to us initially was known to be correct , and had been verified, before the cross was shown. If not, then that is too bad, the real history is lost and the origins of the cross remain in doubt, which helps no one who is interested in the truth concerning these matters.
Perhaps we will learn more soon.
Leroy

P.S. While I was typing this, Robert has posted again and is showing the kind of initiative which I greatly admire. I believe we WILL learn more about this cross. I look forward to it.

Leroy, I didn't participate until this evening because I didn't have anything positive or negative to offer. I am FIRMLY on the fence with this Cross and indeed told ErikN and anyone else who asked of the fact that I was confounded...simply put, I surely don't know when these were produced.


BUT, when posts like (yours) are offered as evidence it irks me a bit because of my (own) experiences.

Let's stick with FACT and recall something said a long time ago..."the die don't lie" and see where we can go! Putting words in a post that are self serving and allegedly from a vet takes us off course..for this vet to know the 'value' and 'collector speak' diminishes the statement...IMHO

[Leroy]

Good work, Robert! Keep plugging away. This is exactly the kind of information which needs to be preserved with this beautiful cross!
Best,
Leroy

[Dave Kane]

Leroy, I was probably not clear. Jay didn't speak with the auctioneer, but I did speak with the son, so there was a windfall from this diversion. The family have letters - and photographs - which may help determine more about the capture. I have full rank and name of the father, and a public records search shows he entered service in 1942. He had been a stenographer.

He confirmed the medals sat in a family closet with the photographs, letters, and a pair of binos. His father spoke little about the war.

What's to be determined is his unit, area of operations, and rotation timeline if it is to of value in this discussion.

s/f Robert

Robert, what's his name....? The record is available..

[Robert H]

19.4.1945 Windsheim Bavaria.

Funny that is actually my hometown back in Germany


Robert

[Leroy]

[QUOTE=Dave Kane;2668523]Leroy, I didn't participate until this evening because I didn't have anything positive or negative to offer. I am FIRMLY on the fence with this Cross and indeed told ErikN and anyone else who asked of the fact that I was confounded...simply put, I surely don't know when these were produced.


Dave,
I am happy to know that you have at least left one side of the fence and are now straddling it!
I didn't think ANYONE would take my "quotes" as real. They were intended solely to reflect the tenor of these ongoing debates and interject some humor into them. That is why I put at the end the phrase: "And the wheel just keeps turning............" I will try to be less obtuse in the future.
Leroy