Cased 800 4 Knights Cross grouping!

[Edgar Estrada]

Thank you all for the good information on this thread.

Please could you tell me what is:

1. PKZ
2. PKZ mandated manufacture regulations? (on the RK)

Thank you and regards

Edgar

[Pieter Verbruggen]

Pieter,

I did not recall that you don't have one, honestly. I never saw your inventory, as you know.

The argument that one cannot buy one because it is pushed in a dark corner (such as the dotted K&Q) is a very bad one, since it is baseless. Just because you, Niemann, Leroy and a few other like something does not neglect facts as they stand. And you know very well that a lot of so called advanced German and USA collectors laugh about the 800-4. Are they all stupid?

I don't think you run a risk buying such a cross (if you find one): first of all you need to be happy (which you are) and second of all, you will always get a positive COA from Mr. Niemann based on the several awards in June 1944. Not that you would need one.. So where is the risk?

And please don't blame me for reporting the facts as they stand. Everything else would be very dishonest. You can say whatever you want but I did not "make things up" to sell my wares ....

There are enough books out there with the overall topic "It is good because I say so. Buy it!" I always thought it is more honest to give the reader all the info to make an informed decision.

Dietrich

Hey Dietrich,

With all respect (and you know I respect you!) your book is at the moment the best reference work on the subject. I gave you lot's of positive critics.
Your book is taken as "the bible" and it is in a certain way.
And there starts my problem . When someone reads your book he can see clearly what your opinion is on certain "unsolved, unprovable" questions. You never state "it's so or so" but everyone immediately see what you realy want to say...and as you are seen as "the expert" (I do not have a problem with this) they just stay away from these items.
So I do respect you and never will say you make things up...I just do not agree on certain things...
Pieter.

[Dietrich Maerz]

Pieter,

but what would be the alternative? To say: Hey, they are good?

And if someone asks me "Why?" I would need to say "Oh, I don't know. Niemann thinks they are good, so I just copied it. Ask him."

We all know that S&L produced crosses post-war. We (nearaly) all agree that the numerous B-Types (800, incuse 800, 935, unmarked, ..) are post war.

So it had to start somewhere!

IMHO, and based on the evidence I could uncover and gather, it started with the 800-4. Maybe they were manufactured before May 1945 but never made it to the PKZ? Maybe it was the stock at Lüdenscheid that was looted and not the official stock at Klessheim? However, that would make them unofficial for me!

Important for me is only that I do not report something that cannot be proven either way. I do not want somebody to buy something based on my book without knowing the full story and to find out later that he made a financial mistake.

If that implies to put a possible good cross (which is very rare so I do not hurt this dealer too much ....) based on the current knowledge in a grey area I find this far better than to put a bad cross in the "original" category.

The sanctification of bad crosses has happened so many times before and now all the poor people are not getting any money back. The Rounder, the 935, the incuse 800, the 800 only B-types, ...

And that you do not agree is perfectly alright!

Dietrich

[Darrell]

So ... based on the sudden SALE of the cross that started this thread, I would assume opinions are pretty strong someone doesn't believe in them anymore

Well all you "believers" ... step up and grab it ... it's real cheap:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=293647

Shouldn't last long at all .. right?

[Darrell]

hey, don't start, you well know that I don't have one! They are so rare I never found the perfect example for my collection.
I would normally pay a premium price for one like this. .....Pieter.

Well $9k must be a real bargain then Pieter

[Leroy]

So ... based on the sudden SALE of the cross that started this thread, I would assume opinions are pretty strong someone doesn't believe in them anymore

Darrell,
I think you are off-base here. Robert, as I understand it, bought the cross originally for re-sale and made no secret of it.
I am a believer and inquired very early if he would be selling the cross. If I had the extra money right now, I WOULD have already bought it and the opinions expressed here by doubters would have had no impact whatsoever. I am not scared by these crosses at all.
Leroy

[RobertE]

Thanks for that Leroy. Darrell, you shouldn't assume the reason for the sale, or pretend to know another man's motivation for doing anything. If you believe you have any insight into my personal and financial situation, you're wrong.

As are your assumptions for the reason behind the sale of the cross. The fact is the discussions have been of interest to me (and others), but they don't change my mind in the slightest. If I thought the viewpoints expressed here had resulted in anything solid against the cross under discussion, then I certainly wouldn't try to sell it at the height of the on-line conversation. God knows there are plenty of other methods for selling an original Knight's Cross.

I will continue to pursue whatever evidence may be provided by the family in terms of when the cross was found, and provide same back to the forum. s/f Robert

[Darrell]

Fair enough guys ... but $9k for a mint cased Pre-45 Cross is a give away ... kinda like those bargain crosses sold on certain dealer's sites that languish forever.

[Darrell]

Fair enough guys ... but $9k for a mint cased Pre-45 Cross is a give away ... kinda like those bargain crosses sold on certain dealer's sites that languish forever.

You shouldn't have any problem getting what you are asking for this one ... I count about 15 on this thread alone that believe in these type.

[Leroy]

I believe this is a very reasonable deal for somebody. I would personally never pay $10K plus for ANY cross (except possibly a real 3/4 ring).

[Darrell]

I believe this is a very reasonable deal for somebody. I would personally never pay $10K plus for ANY cross (except possibly a real 3/4 ring).

With all due respect Leroy ... in that case, you're out of the RK Market

EDIT* One that is cased especially in this condition*

[Richard]

This has been an interesting discussion and I have learned quite a bit. I think there may be some assumptions here that are being used as the cornerstone of the argument for originality. What substantiates the fact that this vet brought back all these medals from Germany? Is it the son's affirmation that this is the case? How interested was the son in what the father brought back? I would assume not very since he consigned them for sale after his father's death. If he wasn't very interested in these items, how good would his memory be of what was in the rather large amount of medals his father brought back?

I guess my point is how can anyone know when this KC entered the collection of all these miscellaneous medals?
Richard V

[Leroy]

Darrell,
I have "been there, done that"! The longer I stay in this hobby (way over 40 years now) the more I become a "bottom-feeder". I've got enough"stuff" that I don't feel the need to do more than putter around!
Leroy

[Bob Hritz]

As far as I understand, medals and badges, to include Knight's Crosses and higher awards, were taken from numerous locations throughout Germany, to include the Reichschancellory building. Not all awards, that contained precious metal were successfully transported to Kleissheim, Austria.

I used to own the cased Oak Leaves, Swords and Brilliants, on page 53 of "On the Field of Honor". It was taken from a safe at Berchtesgaden, by a US Vet. When his wife developed cancer, I bought the decoration, so he could use the money for her treatment. I suspect that many such awards of the Knight's Cross and higher were never moved to Kleissheim. I also had a large group of Eagle orders, a Grand Cross, Knight's Cross, and Knight's Cross to the War Merit Cross that were brought back from Berchtesgaden, in 1945. Someone can find these from an old Der Gaulieter ad I ran in 1976 or 1977.

From my experience of tracking Kleissheim Castle Veterans, I only found lazy 2 Juncker Knight's Crosses, 900 21 Oak Leaves and Oakleaves and Swords, 900 1 marked and unmarked (but silver) Knight's Crosses to the War Merit Cross, 900 21 marked Eagle Orders, and 20 Marked German Crosses, plus, the German Crosses with Daimonds by Rath.

If you would go to the Military Museum in Moscow and walk the clear plexiglass walk over 100,000 plus Iron Crosses, you will see numerous mint Knight's Crosses among the mostly mint First Class Iron Crosses. I don't think the Russians got to Kleissheim first. They miust have found them somewhere else, like Berlin.

I think that to assume that ALL of the unissued medals and badges, of the higher order, were stored at Castle Kleissheim is a bit far fetched.

Bob Hritz

[RobertE]

"This has been an interesting discussion and I have learned quite a bit. I think there may be some assumptions here that are being used as the cornerstone of the argument for originality. What substantiates the fact that this vet brought back all these medals from Germany? Is it the son's affirmation that this is the case? How interested was the son in what the father brought back? I would assume not very since he consigned them for sale after his father's death. If he wasn't very interested in these items, how good would his memory be of what was in the rather large amount of medals his father brought back?

I guess my point is how can anyone know when this KC entered the collection of all these miscellaneous medals?"

1. The vet's name is known. The son is keeping his father's medals, which have value to him, the German ones don't.
2. The total collection was bayonets, badges, and swords, all of which remained with the family after the war. The father didn't collect anything; he wasn't a collector, and was reluctant to discuss much after the war.
3. The sons familiarity with the medals was scant; he remembers the military stuff being in a closet. I'm looking for something more substantial in the form of letter references or photos - we'll see.
4. The Knights Cross came back with the rest -when that was is to be determined.