Cased 800 4 Knights Cross grouping!

[Leroy]

This is, I believe, the 4th or 5th "vet bringback" of an 800-4 reported on this Forum. If memory serves, this is the second with connection to soldiers who(I'm sure by pure coincidence) just happened to be passing through Ludenschied BEFORE the end of the war.

I have heard every argument (and participated in many!). I was, and remain, convinced that these 800-4 crosses are genuine wartime pieces and that the 800-4 is the last and rarest of the S&L RK's.

[Bob Hritz]

This is, I believe, the 4th or 5th "vet bringback" of an 800-4 reported on this Forum. If memory serves, this is the second with connection to soldiers who(I'm sure by pure coincidence) just happened to be passing through Ludenschied BEFORE the end of the war.

I have heard every argument (and participated in many!). I was, and remain, convinced that these 800-4 crosses are genuine wartime pieces and that the 800-4 is the last and rarest of the S&L RK's.

From my experience, I agree completely.

Bob Hritz

[RobertE]

I appreciate the feedback. It is a great looking KC, in my opinion.

As a footnote, I don't know what would pass forum muster on "solid evidence", but direct from the vets family works for me. Regardless of the unit, he rotated home in 1945 with this group of booty.

I'm not throwing rocks here, just trying to understand why the bar keeps rising on acceptable criteria for providence. A COA from a dealer or KC found in a collection attributed to a document group trumps this? If statements from family members is not sufficient, why are various unearthed higher grade decorations accepted as legit just because the widow says it was with his belongings?

If a dated and certified photo showing the item at time of capture is required, with an acceptably documented chain of custody from that point until present, then I need to start collecting Pez dispensers!

On a lighter note, thanks for reviewing the thread and stating your observations. Regards, Robert

[cjs dad]

knights cross at auction

robert

congrats!!!! a great knights cross, and i would venture 100% original.
for the record, you are a tough competitor, i was the underbidder on that lot and the german cross lot you bought, i ended up with virtually everything else at the auction including the anti-partisan badge..... you got the "jewel in the crown" though..

peter

[all1knew]

Robert,

Well Congrats. on this find. Might I ask what you paid for it and why you didn't take out a loan to grab the other items from the auction?

.........I would have sold my car in the parking lot

William Kramer

[Sal Williams]

Does the problem in authentication lie in the fact that it is not a GERMAN vet grouping. If the vet came home in 1945 with all the other authentic pieces in this grouping why would this be the only fake. Lets wait and see when he came home and what unit he was in so we can see where he was and when and if there was a window when he could have aquired a fake, as we now know it was US units that occupied Ludenshied first and not the British...........Regards Jimmy

That makes no sense. Are you saying he could not have gotten that postwar at a gun show, swap meet, yard sale etc? Only available wartime and in Germany?

[Leroy]

That makes no sense. Are you saying he could not have gotten that postwar at a gun show, swap meet, yard sale etc? Only available wartime and in Germany?

In the absence of contemporary photographic proof, there is not a single vet-acquired piece which could not be explained away as a postwar acquisition. This stands true for both American AND German vets, although I have a suspicion that there is a lot more of this circumstance with German vets, who generally lost many things through the surrender (and looting) process.

Every collector has to look to the entiretry of the circumstances and then make a judgment call.

In the case of the 800-4 RK, I made (as did Bob Hritz and many other "older" collectors, who dealt with vets constantly, long before there was a huge TR collecting mania) that call quite some time ago. 800-4 RK's are, in our collective judgment, original wartime production pieces by S&L. When someone says "show me just one awarded piece!", I have to laugh. It is so ludicrous.

The particular cross which began this thread, by itself, "proves" nothing. Robert has established, to his satisfaction, that the vet who had it supposedly obtained it (and the other, obviously original, items with it) while serving in an Army unit which happened to pass through Ludenschied before the war ended. He returned home in 1945. Does this mean he couldn't have picked it up later? No. But what are the odds?

What if a German vet surfaced tomorrow with an 800-4 RK he claimed was awarded to him in December, 1944? How on earth, except by the acceptance of verbal statements, would you ever "prove" that this was his awarded RK and not some replacement he acquired in 1951?

Think about it.

[Dietrich Maerz]

... in our collective judgment, original wartime production pieces by S&L.

Even if that is so, there is a difference between original wartime production piece and original wartime licensed and awarded piece. There are quite some companies that produced things (such as the oaks form S&L) which are not official. Or the ever elusive L/13 swords.
Originality by proclamation (or COA ...) didn't work with the Rounder either. But let me make clear again, that I don't know in the sense "proven.!" If you like it, fine with me!

When someone says "show me just one awarded piece!", I have to laugh. It is so ludicrous.

That I do not understand?

Dietrich

[Leroy]

Even if that is so, there is a difference between original wartime production piece and original wartime licensed and awarded piece.

Dietrich

Dietrich,
Are you suggesting that the 800-4 was an unlicensed version?

As to "award provenance", there is nothing beyond the word of the German vet or his family that any piece is the actual awarded version. This is the same, to me, as the word of a U.S. veteran that he obtained a cross, before war's end, from a prisoner, an office, a shop or a factory.

I would really like to know (although I suspect I never will) what percentage of RK winners were able to retain, despite surrender, captivity and the other trials of early postwar life, their original cross. Of course, there are examples of some who managed to hide them or persuade captors to return them, but how often did an RK winner, especially one of less than field grade rank, get lucky?
Best,
Leroy

[Dietrich Maerz]

Are you suggesting that the 800-4 was an unlicensed version?

Not really. If they would have been found in Lüdenscheid and NOT in Klessheim, they never made it to the PKZ and would therefore be "non-inlicensed." The reason for that could be several, including a post-war production.

I suggest you write a nice e-mail to Mr, Niemann and ask him very kindly about the names of the several (or numerous) 800-4 he got directly from German veterans as actual award pieces. That should settle it. I don't know of anybody else who ever said he got such a type directly from an awardee, so he is key.

At this point in time there is nothing I could add to the topic.

Dietrich

[Leroy]

American vet: "I took this cross from a German prisoner who was wearing it around his neck. I don't know who he was...we had thousands of 'em. All I know is he didn't look very happy! This thing is actually worth money now? I can't believe it......."

German vet: "This is my original cross. I sent it to my sister for safekeeping right after the ceremony and bought (even though I wasn't supposed to be able to do that!)another to wear everyday. The Amis got that one when I surrendered. Of course it wasn't an official one! The one I'm selling you now is the good one."


And the wheel just keeps turning............

[Bob Hritz]

We keep hearing about German Knight's Cross winners who purchased duplicates. What about the German who bought a nice mint Knight's Cross to keep at home, for dress, and that is the one in todays grouping, while the original award piece was captured? Which is the original Knight's Cross? There are many scenarios that have muddied the warters for 6 decades. I never considered some dealers letter iron-clad provenance, but agree that it is nice to know what history of the piece is known.

Today, it seems that most Knight's Crosses are 'provenanced' to the awardee. Too bad that the previous 40 years of collectors did not have such 'provenance' as a dealer's letter.

Bob Hritz

[Dietrich Maerz]

German vet: "This is my original cross. I sent it to my sister for safekeeping right after the ceremony and bought (even though I wasn't supposed to be able to do that!)another to wear everyday. The Amis got that one when I surrendered. Of course it wasn't an official one! The one I'm selling you now is the good one."

Every legitimate RK winner could buy a replacement, second, third or whatever many crosses from the Präsidialkanzlei - so they were very much so supposed to be able to do that - and they did.

I will post original paperwork later.

And those replavement crosses came from the PKZ and there was no difference at all to other awarded and legitimate crosses. No lower quality or such.

So your above sentence makes no sense - at least not to me.

Dietrich

[Leroy]

So your above sentence makes no sense - at least not to me.

Dietrich

Makes no sense?? Didn't Hartmann buy a replacement cross in Vienna? Didn't Adi Glunz also buy one in a shop? Sure, a recipient could apply to the PKZ to purchase one (and I do not doubt for a second that some did), but the PKZ was certainly not the only source. Are you saying an RK recipient couldn't walk into a commercial establishment and buy one? I know the "rules" say "no commercial sales" but do you for a second honestly believe that was the case?
And was enforced?

P.S. And further to the earlier comment that a cross found in Ludenschied wasn't "official" because it hadn't made it to the PKZ...didn't the PKZ send out orders for RK's, which were THEN filled by the manufacturers? Didn't, also, the PKZ direct a halt to the manufacture of decorations BEFORE the end of the war? This makes me believe that any decorations found at S&L by advancing Allied forces should be considered original.

[DavidM]

Not really. If they would have been found in Lüdenscheid and NOT in Klessheim, they never made it to the PKZ and would therefore be "non-inlicensed." The reason for that could be several, including a post-war production.

Hello

I'm sorry but this statement makes no sense to me. If S&L had completed a production run of RKs, (bearing in mind that they were an authorised manufacturer and supplier to the PKZ and so pressumably would have making RKs to fulfil orders from them), but hadn't been able to ship them before the Allies, (in this case, the American troops), over ran Ludenscheid, how does that make them 'unlicensed'? Logic would suggest that it can't, as an authorised (licensed) manufacturer making products under the terms of their contract with the buying authority is doing so legitamately, and therefore is licensed.

If, (and yes, I fully appreciate that to some this is a really big if), the 800/4 S&L RKs were made in these circumstances, and made, say, just prior to Ludenscheid being overrun, then surely they were made during WW2, and made by an authorised supplier. Would that not define them as an original, war time produced item from a war time manufacturer?

As it stands this type of comment only serves to muddy the waters - and if taken as written, opens a real can of worms for all sorts of awards. The extension of this statement is that it could then be argued that no one could say for certain that any given, mint Third Reich award was delivered to the PKZ or other appropriate body before the end of the war, and therefore is an unlicensed and, by the thrust and implication of Dietrichs statement, not an original piece.

Regards
David