Cased 800 4 Knights Cross grouping!

[Gary B]

Hi,

From what I am gleening from this discussion it is very similar to the US law that in order for currency to be considered legal tender it must be released thru a Federal Reserve bank. Coins/currency taken directly from the mint would not be considered legal to own and are still the property of the US Governement.

This seems similar to what Dietrich is saying with regards to licensed crosses.

Gary B

[DavidM]

Hi,

From what I am gleening from this discussion it is very similar to the US law that in order for currency to be considered legal tender it must be released thru a Federal Reserve bank. Coins/currency taken directly from the mint would not be considered legal to own and are still the property of the US Governement.

This seems similar to what Dietrich is saying with regards to licensed crosses.

Gary B

Hello

Thanks for that Gary. If Dietrich is alluding to a scenario like the one you describe, (and of course only Dietrich can say if that is the case), then the extension to his statement is that any awards made during WW2, but not delivered to the approriate awarding or distributing authority should be deemed as unlicensed, despite the fact that they were produced under contract by an authorised maker. In the context of this particular debate, the implication is that, even if made during the war years, as unlicensed pieces they are not legitamate. To be honest I'm not certain that coins or notes of any given countries curency draws a proper analogy to what is being debated here.

My personal opinion is that, as with most commodities, where a contract is awarded to a given company to produce a product, or range of products, and an order is placed by the awarding authority with that company, and the company produces the goods as ordered, then whether the awarding body has received them or not is irrelevant for the purposes of this debate. They were still made at the request of awarding body. The delivery of the goods hasn't taken place, so it can be argued that the contract hasn't been fulfilled, (thus the PKZ or whoever wouldn't have to pay), but the manufacturer of the items was legitamate and within the time frame of WW2.

But this debate is about whether the 800/4 S&L RKs are wartime or postwar made. Only my personal opinion, but between this thread, and the other somewhat lengthy ones on this subject earlier this year, I am now more inclined to lean towards these 800/4s being a wartime, and probably a late war time, made piece.

Regards
David

[Bob Hritz]

My old and feeble mind has a simplified measure of authenticity: If a Knight's Cross was produced, by a licensed maker, on or prior to May 8, 1945, it is original.

And the verso is that if it was produced AFTER May 8, 1945, it is a restrike, if made by a licensed maker, and a reproduction, if made my any other entity, ie; Souval.

Bob Hritz

[Dietrich Maerz]

From what I am gleening from this discussion it is very similar to the US law that in order for currency to be considered legal tender it must be released thru a Federal Reserve bank. Coins/currency taken directly from the mint would not be considered legal to own and are still the property of the US Governement.

Thank you - that's exactly what I meant. And it opens no can of worms at all since the RK is one of very few awards that were send out from the PKZ to each awardee. This is not the case with other awards. And it would be a stretch to say that only awards which went through the PKZ are 'legitimate'. I think we are talking "types and models" here, not individual medals. At least I was.

The difference with Hartmann and maybe other is that he bought a known 'legitimate' cross, i.e. a K&Q in Hartmann's case. If he would have bought a - lets say - dipping ring from Sedlatzeck one could only say that:

- Sedlatzeck made crosses during the war
- it was not an official award type.

But we can argue here till the cows come home. There will be more 800-4 coming up all the time in the USA (there was one in an auction last week at the east coast) and that will change nothing at all.

There are very knowledgeable collectors who think this type is a good one and other equally knowledgeable collectors think they are not. Both sides have no solid first hand proof (maybe Mr. Niemann has) and that is how it stands for me.

Dietrich

[Leroy]

Almost certainly, S&L had unshipped crosses on hand at the time U.S. forces entered the town, prior to the end of the war. This could well account for some of the examples of both 935-4 and 800-4 crosses found in pristine condition; however, and so we won't loose track of this, these crosses have also been found in worn condition by members of this Forum. Detlev Niemann (who has reportedly grown tired of these discussions and arguments, and who considers them silly) reports awards of 800-4 crosses in June, 1944.

And no, Dietrich,I won't e-mail Mr. Niemann (who I do not personally know) to ask him to re-enter the fray. Perhaps other members could speak with him.

Best,
Leroy



P.S. to Gary - Good analogy...but I'd still like to have some of that non-Federal Reserve currency!

[Bob Hritz]

Gary left out that the US Mint does not produce money but tokens and notes, which are then exchanged, with the Federal Reserve, for destroyed (worn out) currency of equal value or exchanged for US Government securities of equal vlaue. Only when one of those transactions is completed, do tokens and notes become legal tender US coins and currency.

Bob Hritz

[Bob Hritz]

Does this make the many dozens of K&Q Knight's Crosses that never made it to the PK fake also? Runors about the flood of K&Q Knight's Crosses, in the past 12 years, were from stocks left over at the factory. There are other, more dark, theories, also. Many will be dissapointed if the answer is "yes".

I never heard of any K&Q cross coming out of Kleissheim.

Bob Hritz

[Dietrich Maerz]

Detlev Niemann (who has reportedly grown tired of these discussions and arguments, and who considers them silly) reports awards of 800-4 crosses in June, 1944.

There are a lot of things Mr. Niemann considers "silly" and "delusive for the collector community" but that still doesn't change facts in itself.

Now this is all very easy then: since Mr. Niemann knows of real and actual awardees (plural!) in June of 1944 of 800-4s the case is closed. Done. End of subject.

Glad we could clear that mistery up! It wasn't that tough!

Dietrich

[Dietrich Maerz]

Does this make the many dozens of K&Q Knight's Crosses that never made it to the PK fake also? Runors about the flood of K&Q Knight's Crosses, in the past 12 years, were from stocks left over at the factory. There are other, more dark, theories, also. Many will be dissapointed if the answer is "yes".
I never heard of any K&Q cross coming out of Kleissheim.

See, Bob, and if one just dares to report such facts (as I dared to do - and also did with the S&L) one is "silly", "deceptive" and "delusive". It can also lead to blacklisting!

Dietrich

[Bob Hritz]

Dietrich,

I stand with you on these issues. We can all come up with theories and try to find the truth, but definative scientific PROOF is what is required.

Whether I believe something or not means nothing. It is only conclusive PROOF that will make something original or not. My beliefs only spur me to work harder at finding the truth. I am ready to suffer 'the agony of defeat' should my beliefs prove wrong.

Like yourself, I am content waiting until we find conclusive and proveable FACTS that will end any controversy.

I know you have to suffer the 'slings and arrows' of many collectors and, surely, more dealers, but we will get to the solution, sooner or later......


Bob hritz

[VIPER]

Under the terms of the issuing authority the 800/4 fullfilled every criteria as a legitimate award piece...1, IRON CORE.....2, 800 or higher silver content frame.....3,Marked with manufacturers mandated code 4...........4, Design as officially mandated by Hitler......and I am sure there were other criteria as well. The point is these crosses fulfilled the contracural obligations too the letter. As far as we can tell the next ones in the series, probably the 935/only crosses did not as the cores were not iron and they were completed using all kinds of leftover parts. The reason being there was now no governing body to monitor their compliance or quality as the Riechs highest award for bravery. This is when all the wierd combinations began to appear. They just had to be good enough for the armed tourists.........Regards Jimmy

[Dietrich Maerz]

.... As far as we can tell the next ones in the series, probably the 935/only crosses did not as the cores were not iron and they were completed using all kinds of leftover parts.

Since (if one elects to believe this ex cathedra statement) several crosses of the type 800-4 have been awarded in June of 1944 the next model in series was the 935-4. Which creates a slight problem... (unless - of course - there were several 935-4 awarded some time before June of 1944 )

Dietrich

PS: Very well made and according to "standards' does not make real - I fell into that trap once. And others, too!
And the opposite is also not true! Look at the 3/4 Ring.

[Leroy]

I am content waiting until we find conclusive and proveable FACTS that will end any controversy.[/B]




Bob hritz

Bob, Dietrich and Jimmy,
I think I am with Jimmy on this. The first "acknowledged" postwar S&L cross is the non-magnetic version marked '935', which, although very nice, is not in compliance with PKZ mandated manufacture regulations. Of the other crosses "known" to have been manufactured postwar by S&L, NONE meet the quality standards/compliance with PKZ regulations exhibited by the "4" marked crosses.

In terms of 'scientific' inquiry (by which, I understand, the physical properties of a cross are examined), I believe a serious study of cores and paint needs to be undertaken. The paint on a simple '935', while possibly of wartime manufacture, does not match in appearance the paint on "4" marked crosses. Similarly, the paint on ALL other "postwar" S&L crosses is also different in appearance (and, also possibly, composition). To me, at least, the cores, especially the swastika portion when viewed from an angle, also do not look exactly right. This is the last avenue of 'scientific' inquiry. Everything else (unless some magic document appears from surviving paperwork) will be based on the verbal accounts of the parties involved, all of whom are fast disappearing.

I believe in these crosses, but I can PROVE nothing. To me, it is astonishing that anyone seriously doubts them.
Happy hunting!
Leroy

P.S. It is a mistake, and misleading, to put 800-4 crosses in the same category as the "Rounder".

[Bob Hritz]

Leroy,

We are on the same page. I also believe the 800 4 was the final production of official Steinhauer and Lueck Knight's Crosses. I can't explain the anomoly of the 935 4 marked crosses, but I do believe the 800 4 marked types are wartime produced. However, I cannot proove that this is the case and must rely on anecdotal information and personal knowledge I have gleaned from US veterans.

The entire controversy lies with the evolution of the die flaws, ie; dent row and knee flaw. Those charasteristics are found on apparant post-war Steinhauer crosses. That is logical if we are to believe, as I do, that Steinhauer continued using the same die for post-war production.

The crux of the matter is the exact cut-off day of production of the 800 4 marked crosses versus May 8, 1945.

I believe this is what we seek and our beliefs are just not enough for 100% conclusive proof. I heartily wish Detlev Niemann would open his records and help us with the timeline via absolute German veteran awards of the 800 4 and 935 4 marked Knight's Crosses.

I also look forward to the day this shadow of doubt is removed from these Knight's Crosses. Nothing that has been brought forward has diminished my belief that these are original wartime produced Knight's Crosses.

Bob Hritz

[Leroy]

Bob,
We are definitely on the same page and I agree completely with your comments!
The search will go on. Please, everyone, look at this side angle view of an S&L marked simply "935". Does the core (and especially the swastika) look "right" to you? Does it match previous known wartime S&L cores (as the 800-4's do)? I think not.
Best,
Leroy