Salty Cased Zeppelin

[Brian S]

Nowhere did I say the Schot was "real" to the exclusion of all others. The rash claim I made was the Schot is the "one legitimately die-struck badge in this discussion." Look again at the pictures. I am more than willing to post the largest macros possible of anything you care to see. Please let me know.

I certainly beg everyone's pardon for expressing my opinions and being a boor. My zeal was apparently as misguided as it was unwelcome.

Respectfully,

Charles

Charles, your observations have been very good. It's human nature of the badge collector to recoil in terror every time a badge is challenged, but your observations have been very well written and articulated.

The pin and catch on the Schot looked very convincing. The imprint of the name concerned me because I would have expected a logo more akin to the sub badge logo. As you intimated, the dies on the zeps certainly would show little to no wear from use and I would have expected or hoped for the same imprint of their logo as on their sub badge. These are not badges produced in any huge quantity after all.

As for the badge being die struck, I would hope to see all these badges die struck. Any other process on these badges would concern me as otherwise it would be too easy to fake them however legitimate the original process non=die struck. But we know fakes have been die struck also. Which doesn't make the Schot fake, especially as I say the catch and pin are very well wrought.

Taking a step sideways, starting with Zep badges and trying to prove them seems a daunting task. I would ask to look at a badge made by a company such as Schot and ask to observe the differences in manufacture. Such as was observed on the CEJ zep badges. Here is a Schot sub badge reverse with an entirely different pin and catch assembly common to all these originals.

The pin and hinge on yours may be a match but for the slight pointing to the end of the pin. The catch could easily be an 'improvement' as all things in any company did not stand still in discovery and evolution.

[Brian S]

Finding the same hinge on the zep badge would in my mind 'prove' it. But this comparison just a 10 thousand foot photo comparison which shows similarity.

[epsomgreen]

//interesting in that same maker mark close-up in post#63 you can see pin-point casting pock-marks along the lower reverse edge of the badge)//

Hi Mike:

Many thanks for you outstanding input. Yes! The badge has telltale pinholes like that in many spots. I had no way of knowing this when I purchased it through eBay, and I got wise long after there was any recourse. I now use a 10x magnifier to hunt for signs of sand, silicone, plaster, or lost wax casting on any badge I purchase. I feel that owning no badge is better than having a fake one. Excluding the crown, these are the measurements of the "Meybauer."



As everyone can attest by now, Zeppelin badges are so scarce we have yet to see a paradigm. I appreciate the concerns raised regarding the Schot hallmark, but until we see another Schot Zeppelin, the jury will be out. You mentioned there were two genuine Meybauer marks; Zep badges were made between the wars, and, given what we don't know, anything remains possible. I'll try to have a more focused picture of the hallmark posted by evening.

Brian's idea of tackling the subject by analogy is one that occurred to me too. However, it then forces and apples to oranges comparison.

I spend most of my time at the pickelhaubes.com forum where I post under the handle "Lost Skeleton." I began an elementary thread on U-Bootkriegsabzeichen there, and discussed two Schot badges from my collection, which I believe to be phony:

http://www.pickelhaubes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2523

Ferg1; thank you for the additional pictures of the flat Juncker. The obverse detail of both badges in the profile views looks very good. Smooth, reflective surfaces are difficult to photograph. I won't question the appearance of the reverse sides further. However, I would like to know more about whether saw cuts are commonplace and accepted on some types of badges.

From the onset, I should have mentioned the Schot badge was part of a larger group. Here's the rest (the cap tally reads Marine Fliegerkorps):





I realize anonymous groups like these can be cobbled together quite easily, and I include it solely FYI.

The saga continues.

Charles

[epsomgreen]

As promised, here are additional pictures of the Schot. These were exposed utilizing overcast natural light and the focus was somewhat blurred by slow "shutterspeeds." I should have used a tripod. However, the pictures are free of flash blooming, etc., and, when viewed as a composite, hopefully some detail will emerge.















Charles

[J. McCabe Bell]

In the interests of science and this epic dissertation I have asked Ken to expedite my Glaeser back to me. I collect attributable groups, not badge types, and I thought I was keeping the better of the two for display purposes when I consigned it to Ken, dazzled as I was by the box and blinded to the CEJ badge's indiscretions. I was also affected by Wolfe's and Peterman's criticism at the MAX, which I think now had more to do with the former's $15,000 in unsold inventory (2 Navy and one army Zep--all unmarked) and Peterman's badge which did sell for $1750--also unmarked.

I will post it when I get it and you can all have at it... with your micrometers, assay kits, and hack saws...

Charles, are the letters blurring or is that maker mark done by hand? I would love your Zepp to be legitimately a part of the group. I had an ensemble like that, too, where the sailor sadly wasn't wearing his badge yet, either--which is odd, for I would definitely have a studio portrait done with my new badge before I mothballed the lot. To prove a paradigm beyond all shadow of a doubt the acid test is going to become proving that a group came directly from the family (which is happening more and more with imperial groups as the grandchildren age) or a bill of sale--which in its time has proven the existence of rare Rolex models...

Rgds
John

[epsomgreen]

Hi John:

Thanks for commenting. The lettering of the Schot hallmark is super clean and die cut. I have yet to take the picture that will do it justice. Now that I know the Glaser & Sohn is yours, I don't blame you in the least for wanting it back. Thanks in advance for making it available here.

In reviewing all the information in what is becoming a marathon thread, two new questions came to mind.

1. Can anyone comment on the possible existence of hollow or cliché style Zeppelin badges?
2. Why are the crown tassels present on Godet style badges absent from, presumably, all other Marine Zep badges?

Regards,

Charles

[J. McCabe Bell]

Here's another picture of that elusive beauty, from the Kriegsmarine coffee table book. I don't whether they chose this type because it was preeminent in some way, or just the best looking of the bunch...

[Ferg 1]

Hello,Charles, I know the term I used ' jigsaw' or indeed 'sawing out' conjure's up the image of a large crude saw hacking out a hole, I was refering ,of course, to a fine piercing saw used to cut out the open area's of the inner wreath. I assume that the badges were struck in planchet form and then shear-cut and finally the inner open area's 'sawn' out and chased with a fine file.The comparison I was making on my badges was the fact that the vaulted one had regular fine saw ridges on the inner faces more in keeping with a powered piercing saw(table mounted or what ever) whereas the flat one has a more hand finished result.Bear in mind that we are talking about very very fine marks not crude saw scars!!. Secondly,I have seen both cliche and verbodet( hollow 2 piece) examples of the luftschiffer badge. A certain German dealer at present has a 2 piece for sale but I am not over convinced about it. I have seen a good example though many years made by Preissler of Pforzheim,missed it though! Ferg1.

[regular122]

Charles,

I can't answer your two questions just yet. Still looking through pics on the stamped version.

Nice group. Makes me pause and ask, 'What if?' So, I thought I would post a comparison (I know, apples and oranges) of the mark on my Meybauer Pour le Merite and your zep badge. The mark on the left is full color. The mark on the right is B&W with shadow to show relief. Your zep mark is in the middle.

Looking at them together, the mark does appear to be more Meybauer than the afformentioned AWS / Meybauer combo. But the marks are obviously not from the same punch in this particular case. But other Meybauer punch marks exist on many other badges as well. Steve

[epsomgreen]

John, Ferg1, and Steve:

Thank you all for the additional information. The Godet badge is a thing of beauty. One can even see the rigid skeleton beneath the stretched skin. John, is the book Unsere Marine im Weltkrieg 1914 - 1918, and, if so, what page?

Ferg1, I'll see if I can track down the Verbodet you mentioned. I'd like to see the pictures.

Steve, seeing your comparison of the Meybauer hallmarks convinces me even more that engraved badge of mine "ist nicht richtig." I never liked the double strike, and the hallmark is larger than I am accustomed to seing. Just to clarify, the Schot badge is linked to the group, not the Meybauer.

I look forward to seeing those big ticket Zeps at the SOS.

Regards,

Charles

[epsomgreen]

I made another effort to photograph the Schot hallmark, and doubt I will be able to improve upon the result. The original silver wash appears to survive intact in some of the recesses.



Charles

[Mike Kenny]

Hi,

One question on the hallmark. As far as I know, the man who designed this badge (the "fec." part) was named "Walter Schott" - the badge was not necessarily MADE by Walter Schott (which would probably have the abbreviation "ausf" instead of "fec"). Why does this striking clearly show only one correctly formed "t" in Schott? It is know from the U-boat badge markings that the bottom of the first of the two "tt"s in Schott has snapped off the stamp - that is why the top stroke of the "t" is disproportionately long to the left and there is only a little "notch" where the first "t" downstroke was). So if they made a new stamp, why didn't they get his name right - assuming he WAS also the designer of the zep badges (Was he?? - otherwise the "fec" is incorrect)?

Regards
Mike

[DaveG]

Nothing of substance to add but may I say that this has been one of the most interesting and informative threads on WAF in quite some time (and I don't even actively collect Imperial badges or awards). I've anxiously awaited each new contribution. My thanks to all participants.

Dave

[J. McCabe Bell]

Here is the guts of the 2004 thread on Zepps which, at the time, veered off into the "crown, no crown" debate. There is a focus on Schott/Schot Zeppelin badges, and a picture of another single-formed "T" Schott Zep...

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ghlight=schott

And a thread with an original and fake "Schot" U-Boat posted by Gordon Williamson...

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ad.php?t=27660

...reiterating Mike's point: "the name stamping on originals always has the definite "double T with the left side upright missing" look" Gordon writes.

Charles, I'll take a look around storage for my books to see if I can get a page number. If it's not in Marine it is in Luftstreitkraefte.

If you or anyone else is going to be at SOS you can look me up at Mike Morris' or Ron Burkey's tables. I'll have both my Zeps with me.

Rgds
John

[epsomgreen]

So if they made a new stamp, why didn't they get his name right - assuming he WAS also the designer of the zep badges (Was he?? - otherwise the "fec" is incorrect)?

Hi Mike:

Because I have no answer for this (other than the alarm Brian referred to earlier), I searched the archives and learned similar ground has been covered before.

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ad.php?t=38492

In the thread, "Bobby Lee" champions a Schot(t) Zeppelin badge, and the response is not unlike our discussion. Perhaps, Tim Tezer will ring in on this issue again.

Charles