Salty Cased Zeppelin

[Brian S]

What was Rick's (stoogieman) take? Did he like it?

If he was the original seller I'm sure he liked it...

[Don D.]

If he was the original seller I'm sure he liked it...

And you are implying what?

[Tim Tezer]

John,

The BDOS yearbook usually comes right after the last annual issue. I haven't got my copy yet, either. That's just some something we have to deal with, being "Ubersee" members.

I think I was clear on this, but I want to just make the point anyway: I was merely rendering an opinion on the badge and expressing my doubts. I could certainly be wrong. (Wouldn't be the first time.) I would love to see other opinions and I would especially like to see any attributed zeppelin badges, if anyone has one.

Tim

[Tim B.]

John,

Did Carsten Baldes ever give you any thoughts on it yet? I know he owns several in his personal collection, but I do not want to post his PICS he sent me awhile back.
Tim

[Brian S]

And you are implying what?

I'm not implying anything, I'm saying straight up that if someone sells an item and gets a grand, of course they like it.

[regular122]

John & 'Mr Smith,'

I didn't phrase my comment very well. The wear on the outside does not concern me at all. It is the inside that is puzzling. It looks very legit and as if the badge had obviously been stored there for quite some time. That is what makes it puzzling. The badge shows lots of wear. Like it was not stored in the case at all, but it is obvious that some badge shaped like the Zep badge was. If the same badge, then I am just trying to account for a worn badge in a case. Most of the time, badges are very well preserved if in a case. Now, maybe he wore it alot. Certainly possible. And maybe he put it in the case every day. Also possible. That is all I was saying about the case. The inside, not the outside.

Ferg offered to email some pics of an authentic 1920s piece, which is as old as you can get for this badge. I'll post them when sent.

As to Rick's comments over at the GMIC, there were a number of folks that commented on the badge. None pointed out concerns. Tim brings out some good points as well. That is why I brought it up and asked members to post what they believe to be good Zep badges. Steve

[J. McCabe Bell]

Hi, gang--

Addressing your collective comments...

1. Stogie liked it but deferred to those with experience of Spanish Crosses having "CEJ" hallmarks who could comment on the form they should take. I have copied them with this thread and they feel uncomfortable judging a CEJ Zepp.

2. Stogie did not sell it to me. Stephen French in London did who has a superb eye. I checked my invoice--it was 350 pounds. Little enough for me to shoot first and ask questions later about an intriguing piece. I would have passed without the case, which has NOT been married to this Zep the way we can marry most Juncker cases to flying badges with only a little play side to side. This is tighter than a #$%^ in a @#$!'s %$#@!

3. Tim, as your Jahrbuch is imminent, let us know if there is anything useful and whether I should order a copy.

4. I just emailed Carsten...we have talked about my Zep goblet

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopi...l=ehrenbechers

for those Zep fans in this forum who don't visit GMIC.

5. Again on the point of wear. There isn't wear in the way I usually see it, i.e. scratches, loss of detail etc. It is effectively MOISTURE DAMAGE! The plating is lifting and rusting off, NOT wearing thin on highpoints to give a hint of the base metal, but flaked off in sections, e.g. the pin. Rust particles are embedded in the flocking. This badge was abandoned in place for decades. The case is warped. I'm reminded of pickels that were stacked in attics under bad climatic conditions, deforming the shape slowly over time.

I'm going try a few more close-ups tomorrow. I think some agree with my motivation in buying this, in that most of us may never see a real one (unless it's Wolfe's $5,000 baby) but this case, like a dinosaur footprint, suggests there is/was one nearby.
Rgds
John

[J. McCabe Bell]

In the above photo, it looks like the pin is a hair longer than the recess for it, but I think that's what they called "parallax" in my high school science class. It fits perfectly.

[J. McCabe Bell]

[Jeff V]

I don't like this one at all. The CEJ mark is nothing like any Juncker produced products from the 1930's. The hardware is completely wrong for a badge produced in the 30's. It has a catchplate under the catch, which is something done on zinc badges from ww2, to help the solder adhere to the zinc. This is not needed on a buntmetal badge. Also the pin is nothing like seen on Juncker badges. The patination(rust) looks very fake. Lastly the detail and quality are poor IMO. I can't comment on the case, but this badge is no good IMO. best wishes,
jeff

[Brian S]

I don't like this one at all. The CEJ mark is nothing like any Juncker produced products from the 1930's. The hardware is completely wrong for a badge produced in the 30's. It has a catchplate under the catch, which is something done on zinc badges from ww2, to help the solder adhere to the zinc. This is not needed on a buntmetal badge. Also the pin is nothing like seen on Juncker badges. The patination(rust) looks very fake. Lastly the detail and quality are poor IMO. I can't comment on the case, but this badge is no good IMO. best wishes,
jeff

Concur! Excellent commentary on the badge and its fittings.

[J. McCabe Bell]

Thanks for your comments, and natch I will play devil's advocate...

1. So what should the CEJ look like?

2. But Juncker did use catchplates...it would be more persuasive if they never did. I'm guessing we'll never know all the circumstances in which they were used. WW1 Zep badges were bought by Luftwaffe officers up through WW2, in very small numbers, obviously. What if, in the 1940s, they used a Zep blank and pinned it in the prevailing way. Does anyone have or has anyone seen another "CEJ" Zep to compare?

3. "Pin...nothing like seen"

Well, this is certainly something like, and these two Juncker pins (from other threads) are different themselves







4. Patination looks false...how does real rust look and where should it collect on the badge?

5. Details, details, details...does anyone have a real badge to show us so we can see better detail?

6. Case...no comment?...no bearing on the argument?

Rgds
John

[Jeff V]

Thanks for your comments, and natch I will play devil's advocate...

1. So what should the CEJ look like?

2. But Juncker did use catchplates...

3. "Pin...nothing like seen"

No, this is certainly something like, and these two Juncker pins (from other threads) are different themselves







4. Patination looks false...how does real rust look and where should it collect on the badge?

5. Details, details, details...please, can you show us a real Zep badge with appreciably better detail?

6. Case...no comment?...no bearing on the argument?

Rgds
John

Hi John, if you do a search on CEJ you will be able to find some original CEJ badges to compare the makermark.
Where is a catchplate on a 1930's Juncker product?
Thank you for showing these pins, they prove my point as they look nothing like the one on the zeppelin badge, other than the rough shape.
There should be no rust on a buntmetal badge.
I do not have an original zeppelin badge to compare but if I look at Juncker imperial flight badges and Juncker 1930's pilot badges the quality and detail is not present on your piece.
As far as the case go's who knows how long that case has been with the badge. It looks old but has no bearing on the badge itself.
I have seen fake badges in original cases for a long time.

The bottom line is we each have to be happy with what we collect and I can see you really like this piece. It would not be one I would be comfortable with, so to each his own. best wishes,
jeff

[J. McCabe Bell]

Hi, Jeff

Actually, I don't really like this piece, it's ugly, "rusty", is not engraved and has no provenance!

I hate metallurgy debates, but...

You say catchplates were used on Zinc. There is zinc in this badge. Brass has zinc.

I don't know the composition of this alloy. High copper content alloy turns brown when exposed to air. I think that may be what I've been seeing as "rust" So you are right. I am probably wrong to use the word rust. I will lose it.

I've already asked some CEJ badge collectors to judge the Zep based on the hallmark and they said they weren't comfortable doing so.

Quality? I think we should compare Zeps to Zeps...in 30 years I have seen quality of WW1 flying badges all over the map, depending on whether they were made in 1915, 1918, 1919, 1929, 1939, or 1942. So that's a little too sweeping for me. I think the quality of most zinc badges to be worse than this, if we compare period to period.

I have seen fake badges in real cases, too, they usually stick out like sore thumbs. Just curious...any other real Zep cases out there?

Rgds

[regular122]

Juencker Zeppelin Badge 1a

John,

Here's the pics of two Zep Badges promised by Ferg. I will let him do the explaining. The second badge only has one pic and is shown last.

Juencker Zep badge 1a