I forgot to mention that the 1950s BGS Arbeitsjacke resemble Zoll Arbeitsjacke that I sold Gordon. Except Zoll is lighter green and no shoulderboard loops. It is undated so I could not say how old it is.
regards
Klaus
regards
Klaus
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I have obtained some further information from another collector [and BGS-vet]. The lightweight tunic and trousers was officially adopted on 01 July 1956. It was originally adopted for use as a "special-orders" Sommeranzug but later [date unknown] the orders were changed so that it could be utilized as a Arbeitsanzug [and replace the older two-pocket Arbeitsanzug]. The quote from Post Nr.306:Originally posted by Klaus1989 View Post
"Arbeitsanzug wurde beim Formal-, Gelände-, Schieß-, und Arbeitsdienst getragen, beim Arbeitsdienst meist mit Schiffchen."
details the later orders for the uniform. It was officially replaced in 1958 by the Sumpftarn camouflage pattern Einsatzanzug. But, of course, it had a "wear out" period and that is why it is seen in use into 1960.
According to the same collector it was only ever manufactured from a cotton "moleskin" type fabric similar to the first Bundeswehr Arbeitsanzug. He also mentioned during the same period of time is when they lost nearly 50% of the BGS to the newly formed Bundeswehr!
Here is a quick image of the uniform being worn in 1957. The Gj in the center is wearing it and the trousers. Also note the earlier pattern suspenders [with the simple Wehrmacht-type attachment clip instead of the later spring-clip] and the flare cartridge pouch on the right side of his belt.
Klaus, I have met a number of BGS-vets "trolling" the German-language militaria forums such as the "Militaria Fundforum", "Multi-board", among others. I also email BGS-vets that post on the Guestbooks of the veteran websites to see if they just want to talk about the "good old days". I have found some vets are a wealth of information while others are sometimes skeptical about speaking with non-BGS-vets. Most, if not all, are amazed that an American has an interest in the BGS and actually collects the stuff. About the only thing, in my case, that helps break the ice is the fact I was stationed in Stuttgart, "West Germany" in the 1980s.Last edited by sgtmonroe; 09-02-2009, 11:45 AM.Comment
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Sumpftarn parkas
Thanks to Daniel Peterson, all of us are now aware that three successive versions of the Sumpftarn jackets had been in use by the BGS. We also know through sites such as kamouflage.net that the BGS Sumpftarn itself had undergone several modifications in the '60s, yielding at least three major variants.
However, I have not seen to date any mention of there having been more than one type of the 3/4 length Sumpftarn parka in use during its long service life (which, according to a BGS veteran who posted earlier in this thread, lasted well into the '80s).
I bought two of these parkas recently, and they happen to show some subtle but noticeable differences between them; which leads me to believe that the parka, like its companion jacket, had also gone through some non-trivial evolution during the period in question. Maybe other members here have noticed the same?
First the maker labels. One coat is clearly '67-dated in the typical BGS fashion. The other one is harder to make out. I know that '8415' stands for special garment, and '12' stands for Germany, but I've never quite learned what the last four digits in this type of stock numbers stand for. As near as I can see, the stamped number here reads '6010'. I am guessing that '60' is the year of manufacture, but I would not bet my life on it.
A side-by-side view of the coats, and some of the more noticeable differences between them:
The '67-dated coat has the typical 'Type 3" Sumpftarn, with an almost sand-colored base, and sharply defined gaps between the brown and olive-green features. The (possibly) '60-dated coat has a more greenish hue overall, with a 'Type 2"-like camo pattern (softer features and less pronounced gaps). However, the pen-pocket on the upper left arm of the '60-dated coat is made out of 'Type 3' Sumpftarn farbric, and looks like a later add-on.
Some of the significant differences are: A) elbow patch (present only on the '67 coat; B) armpit gusset (present only on the '67 coat and liner); C) tape-reinforced button attachment points across the upper abdomen (just like on some BW uniforms; completely absent on the '60 coat), and D) Waist adjustment tape (in the '60-dated coat, this is a thin strap in the same style as that found in the 'Type 2' jackets; whereas the '67 coat shares the much heavier duty tape found in 'Type 3' jackets). Other differences not shown include: different number of liner buttons (6 per side in the '60 coat, 7 per side in the '67); different liner cuffs; different methods for stowing the hood; different materials used for lower pockets (a thin twill in the '60 coat, heavy camo fabric in the '67).
Even though I am less than confident that my '60-dated coat is in fact made in 1960, I have little doubt that it predates the '67 coat, as all those features listed above show the '67 coat to be an improvement over the '60 coat.
The one thing that unsettles me somewhat is the camo pattern. While the Sumpftarn on the '60 coat is clearly distinct from the typical 'Type 3' pattern, it is far from identical to the patterns seen on my '60-dated trousers and '62-dated 'Type 2' jacket:
Whether we are simply looking a sub-variant of the 'Type 2' Sumpftarn, or a stand-alone pattern in its own right, I have no way of knowing. These are after all collector designations, rather than anything approaching official nomenclature. I should mention that even the patterns found on the '60-dated pants and '62 jacket, while very similar, are not identical. Officially or not, a lot of variations were clearly trialed (or tolerated) during those years.
Does anyone here have an even earlier coat, a contemporary of the 'Type 1" jacket/smock perhaps?
Gene TComment
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For shure the 60 is not a date... to my knowledge the last four digits in a NSN are the lowest level of classification of items. Therefore they are handstamped in this case ... . The first part of the number with its 9 digits can be used on all parkas purchased in this lot from Wispo while the last four digits will name the specific item, in this case a parka in size "46"Originally posted by Gene T View Post
Depending on the stile of the label plus the washing advise I would say this parka is one of a very late batch from the 80ies...
JensComment
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I think you are right, Jens. I had noticed that the buttons on this coat were different from those on my other BGS pieces, but chose to ignore this clue because I was drawn to the 'product improvement' hypothesis based on the changes I saw between 'Type 2' and 'Type 3' jackets. That, along with the camo differences, made me think that it's an earlier coat. Your remarks compelled me to go back and compare the buttons on this coat with those found on moleskin fatigues from the '80s. Sure enough, they match.
So, rather than an example of 'product improvement' (as seen between 'Type 2' and 'Type 3' jackets), what we are really looking at is likely a case of cost-saving 'product simplification' (between a '60s era coat and its '80s derivative - reminiscent of the drop in quality seen between British '68 pattern and '85 pattern DPM smocks). This would also suggest that the last BGS Sumpftarn pattern is not the standard 'Type 3' that we are familiar with, but something that resembles - yet is not identical to - the old 'Type 2' pattern (which is not inconsistent with the German practice of recycling and reworking old patterns). Maybe it should be called 'Type 3b', or 'Type 4' BGS Sumpftarn.
Gene TComment
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Gene T,
Jens is correct in his response to your comments on the NATO stock numbers. The last four digits refer to a specific item and have nothing to do with a date of manufacture. The first four refer to the type of item IE 8415 for clothing. The 12 stands for items made in Germany.
Regards,
GordonComment
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How odd.
Somehow I have ended up quoting myself?
Cheers,
HughComment
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The last seven digits of a NATO/National Stock Number [Versorgungsnummer] mean nothing. They are simply a succession of numbers. There is no pattern to their use and are normally just random. Of course they end up identifying a certain item and in the case of clothing items they are sometimes in sequence according to the garment's size.
The "first pattern" sumpftarn jacke [cut the same as the splittertarn jacke - first issued in 1953] were issued at the same time the "second pattern" jacke were. The first two sumpftarn jacke were unveiled at the Mosel training exercises in late 1958. The "first pattern" sumpftarn jacke were quickly discarded due to being a "pull over" type garment - a really bad idea for a piece of "combat clothing".
I have only seen a few pictures of the "first pattern" sumpftarn jacke in use. And it is in photos taken in 1959! The "second pattern" jacke was favored much more by the grenzers.
As for the parka. It appears it was introduced in late-1967 or early-1968. As one of your parkas is dated 1967 I think it might be one of the earliest manufactured [the other is dated 1982].
Here is the earliest image I have of the parka in use in the field [I am still digging to see if I have an earlier image...but I think this is the earliest]. The image is dated early 1968 [the use of the camouflage trousers has ceased and the parka is worn over the Einsatzanzug grün]:
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Hello 'Sgtmonroe',
Fascinating image. When did the BGS cease wearing the camouflage trousers?
At the time of the 'Prague Spring', what is the likely combination of uniform items that the BGS would have been wearing (bearing in mind it was Summer and a parka was probably a bit 'heavy' for the season)?
Also, any idea when the BGS started to affix the crescent and Bundesadler to the parkas (the ones illustrated seem not to have these).
Final question. The caps which the grenzers are wearing in the last image appear almost identical to the style popular with the Bundesheer at this time. Are they identical, or are they specific BGS issue items? If so, have they superseded the use by the BGS of their camouflage caps in 1968?
Sorry for all the questions, but I am putting together a group of uniforms appropriate to the various countries involved in or close to the 1968 Soviet 'intervention' in Czechoslovakia, so I am keen to ensure that the BGS uniform will be as accurate to the period as possible.
Cheers,
HughComment
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BGS status
As the "policelike" stile of later garments is mentioned above...:
Until the early 90ies the BGS was internationaly seen (and perhaps accredited at some UN organisation) as military organisation, not as police organisation. Afterwards the status of the BGS was changed into a police organisation. By this time the equipment was demilitarized and camo + WH stile helmets (etc) came out of use, armoured cars where transferred to the BW (they should be enlistet as "hermelin" but never entered service) and the MG42 where also phased out...
This fact led to some trouble during the Kosovo conflict as the BGS could not be depolyed to a concflict area any longer as police units cant be send without agreement with the local government ... so the BW - wich wasnt trained and equipped for that - had to carry out the police duties needed to stabilize the country...
JensComment
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The trousers stopped being "general issue" in 1968-69. They still appear from time to time later but not as "general issue". The green Einsatzanzug would be the standard "field uniform" worn during this period of time. Some units wear the "third pattern" sumpftarn jacke [with "pen pocket"] well into the 1970's [but without the matching camouflage trousers].Originally posted by Hugh Zillmann View Post
The "Bundesgrenzschutz" arc was added to the uniforms sometime after 1971 [I believe it was to be on all uniforms by 1974 as pictures from that date show grenzers with it and without it].
The Bergmuetze [mountain cap] was standard BGS issue and a lightweight version was produced to be worn with the green Einsatzanzug [as was the BGS version of the Schiffchen - or as we called it the "c*nt cap" - which was also beginning to be issued].
So for summer 1968 a grenzer would more than likely be wearing the green Einsatzanzug with either field cap [or the helmet]; the "third pattern" sumpftarn jacke [either over the green jacke or in place of it]; belt, suspenders, G1 pouches, green breadbag, post-1962 canteen, folding e-tool; and armed with the G1.
The image below is dated during the fall of 1968 showing the green Einsatzanzug in use.
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Very informative posts, gentlemen. They clarified a lot of things for me. Many thanks to all!
Gene TComment
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sgtmonroe,
When did sumpftarn trousers first issued? Most photos from 1950s, they wear wool trousers with jacket. Also, BGS arch was authorised 1970 - we discussed it awhile ago in this thread. You will see it start appearing around late 1970-71.
Earlier parkas before sumpftarn were splittertarn and cut more like Wehrmacht ones. I knew of no splittertarn jackets that were not parkas though. I will post my 1959-dated field jacket and comparison of some camo patterns next week.
regards
KlausComment
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Klaus is correct, a parka was never manufactured in the splittertarn camouflage pattern. The only two items, for sure, were the pull-over jacke [or smock] and the zeltbahn. Peterson shows a pair of trousers in his book but never describes them. He only refers to the splittertarn as a "suit".
I, personally, have never seen an image of splittertarn trousers in use. Nor have I ever seen a pair for sale or in a collection - other than the ones shown in Peterson's book.
Here is the earliest image I have of the splitterntarn smock being worn. All the images I have always show the smock being worn without "matching" trousers. The image is from 1953 [an easy way to tell the image is pre-1956 is the use of the pre-1956 BGS tactical symbol on the vehicle!]. Of course this Grenzjäger is wearing the smock "white side" out:
Here is a group of Grenzjäger from 1957 all wearing the smock. It should be noted that a number of images from the time period show a splittertarn helmet cover in use. These helmet covers were not issue items but instead "field made" items manufactured from discarded zeltbahnen:
Now to answer Klaus' question. From what I understand from veterans the original sumpftarn items were all unveiled [the smock, jacke, trousers, and field cap] during the October 1958 training exercise at Mosel aka the Moselübung. Here is an image of a BGS-Pionier taken sometime between 13. -17. October 1958 wearing the sumpftarn jacke, trousers, and Feldmütze:
Last edited by sgtmonroe; 10-19-2009, 04:29 AM.Comment
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