BGS BundesGrenzSchutz

[Klaus1989]

yes, same type!

[Klaus1989]

Found one of those early helmet liners here in Holland, very random thing to turn up here, hoping to find another early shell sometime where it fits in.

It's different than my other one in that this one is the type with the metal ring and springs that attach to the rivets, instead of my older one attaching directly to the liner ring made of leather IIRC, I should check that.

The 58-59 marking should be the headsize, what would the 61 be, measurement outside that ring?
And what size shell would this go in, maybe 61 means it should have a 61 shell or so?

Oh yes and the bag is unrelated to BGS.

from what I understand this is the earliest model of liner from 1951. My example and every other I have seen also have the metal springs. Not familiar with a variant, that attach direct to a leather band. However several early Landespolizeien also used them (Niedersachsen and Hessen, although Nds is same as BGS type).

61 is the hole for maximum size to adjust liner, normally they are stamped 58-61. Not sure why different here. This is liner for size 66 shell. Ebay.de seller sometimes list BGS reissued WW2 shells for past few weeks with mismatched rivets and fake WW2 liners - probably holes were welded closed for the 1953 liners (like with most WW2 shells used by BGS) and someone redrilled them later though. Untouched early BGS shells are almost impossible to find.

Regards
Klaus

[michelwijnand]

Thanks for clarifying the numbers, though I'd like to add, I'm a size 59, and in the largest setting the liner actually fits me quite well, not
too huge what I feel from other size 61 stuff, does that maybe just pertain to the liner band itself, if it would have no leather band and padding on it?

And here's some pics of my old helmet, and I checked the band, it's not leather but like plastic or something similar.
I've seen such a liner just once before, in a same shell as this.

This liner came with the shell, but it was loose and I've added the splitpins myself.

[michelwijnand]

Found the pics of the other I saw.

[Klaus1989]

yes this helmet was used by Hessen. Feuerwehr type vents, but shell is steel and not aluminium. Web and leather parts are similar to BGS 1951 liner, but it attach completely different. Chinstrap is also unique type for Hessen.

Not sure, if all Bepo units used nets or not. Have seen them used by some Länder though.

Regards
Klaus

[austromunga]

Hi all
Picked up some BGS Adler eagle patches at a militaria fair...one (camo backed one) to replace the missing one from the sleeve flap on my other BGS Jacket..and the other ....is it for the later Green type Jackets???
also a close up of my replacement flap for my other jacket (still haven't gotten round to stitching it on!!) as the back ground seams to be grey wool!!?? is that correct??
also found another BGS?? cap....umm....possibly??? .....the mottled colour is a little odd!!..that... and the seller told me it came with a job lot of lufty kit!!??

[Klaus1989]

the eagle on the flap look like it is backed on moleskin and not wool from what i can see? It is originally applied on the flap, they used both that and camo backings on the jackets. Other eagle is 60s/70s. Starting in early 60s (or very late 50s - i have 50s tunic with period applied example, but could be later replacement), some BGS tunics used a woven eagle backed on wool. Others continued to use the embroidered eagles and woven one with backing was phased out later (not sure when).

Some Landespolizeien used a mottled material for their summer uniforms, however the piping look like the darker green used by BGS. BGS issued summer weight service uniforms in the 60s/70s, but have never seen a matching cap for them and most BGS caps have only 1 vent on each side. Is the cap cotton or wool/polyester blend?

Regards
Klaus

[austromunga]

Thanks Klaus

Not sure about the materiel used on the mottled oddity, it looks similar maybe tighter weave to my supposed BGS hat...and....just feels cheaper... like zelt materiel???

Some more pics side by side with the BGS hat for comparison of features..(very similar) and colour...

[Gordon Craig]

austromunga,

This type of mottled material was used for police field uniforms during the TR period and and after the war. I have three tunics in this material. One TR period and the others post war. I also have two post war caps but they are different in design than the one you have shown. I would say that your mottled cap is post war police but I don't know from which state. I'll try and find time this weekend to post my uniforms for your reference. All three uniforms and a different shade of yellow/green mottled material. The hats are different colours again.

Regards,

Gordon

[Collectinsteve]

I have a molted jacket badged for Zoll. So it seems its post war use was fairly diverse.

As for the arm badges, which type used depends on the date of the jacket/parka and (I think) the manufacturer.

The earliest ones (1967 through maybe 1970 or so) used the camo or moleskin backed type. Later ones (not sure when, but I think 1970s only) used the common type without either type of backing. It's easy to see if you need one of the backed types or the one without backing as the size is noticeably different. Hold the patch up to the stitching pattern and it should be clear.

Steve

[austromunga]

Many thanks Guys!!! so post war Police or zoll for the hat!!..........can a ask... what type of cockade would this have had???... the earlier two piece type with the felt centre??...
The camo edged one fits the stitching outline for the patch missing on the jacket flap perfectly...just need to get it properly "zig-zagged" on!!!!!!....

[Collectinsteve]

Many thanks Guys!!! so post war Police or zoll for the hat!!..........can a ask... what type of cockade would this have had???... the earlier two piece type with the felt centre??...

Yup! That should do it. Pretty standard feature across all uses at the time. But just in case, double check for holes where badges used to be. That should confirm what should/shouldn't be there.

The camo edged one fits the stitching outline for the patch missing on the jacket flap perfectly...just need to get it properly "zig-zagged" on!!!!!!....

Having just put on a couple more, I can safely say it's tricky to do. When it comes out right, it's great. However, even after putting on a couple dozen of these over the years I still screw it up now and then.

Whomever does the stitching should practice on a spare bit of cloth to make sure the spacing left/right and between stitching is similar to what was originally used. Better to figure it out on a disposable piece of cloth than on the real thing.

BTW, the vast majority of BUNDESGRENZSCHUTZ arc badges that were applied later (to meet new regulations) were put on with a straight stitch. However, occasionally they had zig-zag stitching like yours. Just a note for those of you out there looking to restore badging... check the stitch marks before reapplying.

Steve

[Klaus1989]

ok with better pic cap is definitely not BGS. Correct badge will depend, who used it though. Like i wrote earlier, most Landespolizeien used a lighter green piping, so maybe would help determine. It look lighter than the BGS piping at least.

Zoll used the Bundeskokarde like BGS, Landespolizei would use the star badge for the respective state in most cases (Bepo in Hamburg and Bremen were exceptions and used the Bundeskokarde).

Regards
Klaus

[Gordon Craig]

Gentlemen,

Here are the promised pictures of my mottled type uniforms. For comparison purposes I've included the war time tunic as well as the post war ones in these first photos. All of the tunics differ in colour. It would appear that each state sources its cloth of this type from a different manufacturer. There will also be a lot of variations in what you see due to these being photos plus how they appear on different PC screens. The cap on top of the three uniforms together is post war from Bavaria. To start with the war time tunic;

Regards,

Gordon

[Gordon Craig]

The next tunic is Landespolizei Hessen. None of these mottled post war tunics that I have seen have shoulder boards. The rank on this Hessen tunic is indicated by short green bars on the lower left sleeve. Not pictured here.